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Valve material identification



 
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adms
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Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 11:32 am    Post subject: Valve material identification Reply with quote

Comparing the valve surfaces of a few trumpets, I have a 1940s King Master Cornet which has a mirror finish and I assume is nickel silver. I have a cheap modern pocket trumpet that has a dull finish, I assume is monel. I recently bought an early ~1920 King Liberty trumpet. It's valves have a dull finish. I assume it isn't monel, but it doesn't look like the high polish of nickel silver. Is it just tarnished? Is there something I ought to do about that?

Thanks
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Rwwilson
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The plating on your King is most likely chrome. I have both a King Silvertone trumpet and cornet from the forties and both had very shiny valves. The cornet had a lot of plating pitting because of corrosion. I sent it off to have the valves redone and was told that the plating was chrome. It was stripped off and replaced by nickel.

Your modern pocket trumpet might have stainless steel valves. My Jupiter does.

You can usually tell the difference between nickel plated valves and monel by looking at the valve passages. In valves made with monel they will be brass colored and in horns with nickel plated valves they will also have the nickel plating and so look silver.
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adms
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very helpful. Thank you!
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adms
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just cleaned the ~1920 Liberty, and it had dull gray valve bodies with brass colored valve passages. It wouldn't have been stainless 100 years ago. Did they do the valves differently? Nickel silver the outside and braze the valve passages in as a secondary operation? Would the valve body be made of something other than nickel silver? Wondering in case I decide to replate. Valve compression is not good.
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Rwwilson
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With monel valves the body is made of monel with the brass passages brazed in. With nickel the body is brass and the nickel is electroplated on. The brass passages are usually brazed in before plating. I don’t think monel was used in the 20s so I suspect the valves are nickel plated. It is possible the ports were sealed during plating. This is done for an extra cost by some valve rebuilders.
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Rwwilson
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should have added that nickel plated valves are not shiny but look gray and are not easy to tell from monel.
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adms
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again.
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Jenny Lee
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rwwilson wrote:
The plating on your King is most likely chrome. I have both a King Silvertone trumpet and cornet from the forties and both had very shiny valves. The cornet had a lot of plating pitting because of corrosion. I sent it off to have the valves redone and was told that the plating was chrome. It was stripped off and replaced by nickel.


My understanding is that chrome (chromium) is the main additive in stainless steel (SS). Do you mean that there are SS pistons with chrome plating, that all SS pistons are solid SS, or that some pistons are made from some other base metal and then chrome plated over top?

Rwwilson wrote:
With monel valves the body is made of monel with the brass passages brazed in. With nickel the body is brass and the nickel is electroplated on. The brass passages are usually brazed in before plating.


I watched a video from Jason Harrelson [9:40] where he seems to suggest that Monel pistons are plated in Monel, not solid Monel. Am I misunderstanding this?

Forgive my ignorance if these are really beginner questions to be asking. I'm just trying to better understand valve materials.

Thanks.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jenny Lee wrote:
...
I watched a video from Jason Harrelson [9:40] where he seems to suggest that Monel pistons are plated in Monel, not solid Monel. Am I misunderstanding this? ...

----------------------------------------
In that segment, Harrelson is talking about a very thin tube of solid monel that is installed (like a sleeve) over the main piston body (which is made of some other material, likely brass). He is not talking about PLATING with monel.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a horn from a hundred years ago, it's most likely a nickel piston body, with or without a layer of plating over it. Monel is an alloy that contains nickel as a key element, and by the 1950's was the default for Bach pistons, for example.
Bach had offered monel pistons as early as the 1940's.
Monel is a manufacturing efficiency, as a properly fitted and plated piston will outlast it, and is far more labor-intensive. Don't take my word for it - search Getzen on this platform and learn from the authority.
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Rwwilson
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:24 pm    Post subject: King valves Reply with quote

To clarify my earlier post; my King Silvertone trumpet and cornet we’re built in the mid 1940s. They both had very shiny valves. They had nearly a mirror finish, not the dull gray of most valves. The valves on the cornet were corroded through to the underlying brass in spots. When I sent it to Oberloh to have the valves repaired I was told that it was common for King to use chromium plating over brass for their valves. They stripped the chromium and replaced it with nickel during the repair.
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Jenny Lee
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
In that segment, Harrelson is talking about a very thin tube of solid monel that is installed (like a sleeve) over the main piston body (which is made of some other material, likely brass). He is not talking about PLATING with monel.


Ah I see. Thanks for clarifying.

Once I saw a video of the production process showing liner installation, this became much clearer to me. The pistons are hollow tubes, sometimes coated, with liners inserted into the ports and then brazed and trimmed.
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Jenny Lee
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: King valves Reply with quote

Rwwilson wrote:
To clarify my earlier post; my King Silvertone trumpet and cornet we’re built in the mid 1940s. They both had very shiny valves. They had nearly a mirror finish, not the dull gray of most valves. The valves on the cornet were corroded through to the underlying brass in spots. When I sent it to Oberloh to have the valves repaired I was told that it was common for King to use chromium plating over brass for their valves. They stripped the chromium and replaced it with nickel during the repair.


Interesting. I wonder how chromium-plated brass valves are in new trumpets these days and what the performance and longevity of those might be.

Since it seems most valve rebuilds will include nickel plating, rather than some other finish, I'm guessing chromium plating would be rather rare?
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