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Mouthpiece Demand - Failure of Public School Music Educators


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Denny Schreffler
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:57 pm    Post subject: Mouthpiece Demand - Failure of Public School Music Educators Reply with quote

I’ve got a friend in Texas whose trumpet-playing son is starting in a HS that has a large marching band.

The assistant BD in charge of high brass has told the incoming freshmen that they need to switch to a “3C” from anything smaller, if they’re not already on one — to open up their sound.

I thought that this kind of mindless and mythical misguided misinformation had withered on its rootless vine, but — no.

Where and how can anyone get a music education degree at any level that perpetuates this kind shoddy pedagogy concerning individual anatomy, individual embouchures, mouthpiece variables, and sound production?

—Denny
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps my perspective might have some credibility.
I have made mouthpieces fir more than 40 years for the best players, comeback players , players with weird chops, great chops, everything.
I have also been a “public school” band director for 30 years. At top flight programs I might add, with great marching bands.
I’m also a gigging trumpet player. For about 15 of those 30 years I did 5 nights a week with commercial bands and maybe 80 gigs a year with brass quintet. That’s a lot of trumpet.

When it come to recommending a mouthpiece for marching band kids that I don’t really know yet, I tell them to start off with a 3c or Yamaha 14b4. We have drawers of those and kids take em and it works out real good. The 3c is not very deep, not very wide, and not too sharp at the bite, and a bit flat in the rim contour. That makes it better than a 7c which is WAY deeper and probably even wider and sharp bite and thin rim. Same with 5c. A 1.5c is kind of wide for a kid. 2.5c is deep. Actually a 10.5c is pretty nice for a kid but I never recommend it cuz they are harder to find.

For sure I run into trumpet teachers that don’t know very much about mouthpieces but if somebody is recommending 3c for incoming marching band kids chances are that he knows it I very likely to turn out good. And by the way, if the school has a high brass specialist they are most likely offering a music education that private schools can’t come close to.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece Demand - Failure of Public School Music Educa Reply with quote

Denny Schreffler wrote:
I’ve got a friend in Texas whose trumpet-playing son is starting in a HS that has a large marching band.

The assistant BD in charge of high brass has told the incoming freshmen that they need to switch to a “3C” from anything smaller, if they’re not already on one — to open up their sound.

I thought that this kind of mindless and mythical misguided misinformation had withered on its rootless vine, but — no.

Where and how can anyone get a music education degree at any level that perpetuates this kind shoddy pedagogy concerning individual anatomy, individual embouchures, mouthpiece variables, and sound production?

—Denny
Actually, it sounds like you are the misguided one. I got a music education degree and a masters in trumpet performance, but I guess I'm a fool peddling shoddy pedagogy.
Anybody can play on a 3C. It's a good middle of the road mouthpiece and definitely helps open up the sound from a 7C. Every one of my private students has benefitted from moving to a 3C or Bobby Shew Jazz in high school, their sound gets bigger and their articulations clearer, regardless of embouchure, teeth, lips, etc. From there people can make individual choices on what mouthpiece they want to play. Lip size and anatomy has nothing to do with it... if that were the case tuba players would all have huge lips and trumpet players would all have tiny lips, which is clearly not the case. The 7C is good for beginners because it is easy to get a rich tone without having much strength, but honestly I have started kids on 3C and they do just well on it. The only reason I don't start all students on a 3C is I simply haven't purchased enough 3Cs for my band program.

If only one mouthpiece size was available, people would still be able to play trumpet just fine. The idea that you have a particular rim size that is perfectly fit for your chops is a marketing gimmick.

-A public school music educator
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:49 pm    Post subject: Mouthpiece demand...the problem of music educatiors. Reply with quote

OK, Denny, this is where I sound in a little. As one who has watched from a distance for years I kind of feel like you hear stories like this too often. Instructors who don't have a clue suggesting based upon a conversation that lasted for ten minutes when both schools played at a parade. Suggesting that one get a 3c to "open the sound" up is ludicrous One or two of the students in that band might be receiving lessons from someone who actually knows what and why they want a student on a certain mpc. From about the age of 13 my teacher had me get a Bach 1c and I played it for years. Where would I have fallen into this erroneous sound zone? The one that most shows my position on how educators can misdirect happened to me a year and a half or so ago, before the virus at a brass band concert. We have a nice group in the area that I can't play with but I love going to their concerts. After this particular concert I went forward to talk to the young man who played principle and some soprano. He was cordial and I asked him how he got along with the soprano horn. He then held up his Bach B-flat and said mom and dad got this for me about 8th grade and it's great. I would agree. Then he asked me what I played and i said for 27 years I played a Benge 5x and loved it. Here is where he lost me. He said, "well hopefully before you get too old to play at all you have a chance to play a Bach because they are really the only trumpets made in America. Hmm, there's not much wiggle room in there for choices and this is a h.s. band director from a school not 12 miles away. The bald faced truth is that is totally false. As is telling a group that a 3c will "open" up their sound. I was fortunate to take lessons from someone I consider one of the smartest musicians ever and he was always straightforward in suggesting change, explaining everything to be gained by doing something like change a mouthpiece or buy a different horn. Neither he or my college trumpet teacher would have dreamed of making such a suggestion. Now I am getting off the soap box. I agree that this occasionally happens, and sadly it will probably continue.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaw04 wrote:

Quote:
If only one mouthpiece size was available, people would still be able to play trumpet just fine. The idea that you have a particular rim size that is perfectly fit for your chops is a marketing gimmick.


I would not deny that many people can play on a middle of the road mpc like a Bach 3C just fine. Whether they are playing as well as they can is another thing. If different mouthpiece sizes are not necessary, then a whole lot of trumpet players are being duped, and it seems that the more expert the player, the more duping they get, because it does seem that there's a high percentage of pros who are quite discriminating in their mouthpiece choice.

I myself need a very large mpc to play my best. I'm sure there are people who are the exact opposite. On natural trumpet, I tried a replica Bull mpc, the smaller one, and I just wasn't able to play the high register at all. The larger Bull mpc works just fine and it is the same diameter as my valved Bb mpc.

While it may make some kind of average group sense to give all the high schoolers a 3C, I don't think this proves that they are all playing their best on it...just perhaps better as a group than on their former 7C.

Is there actually any data that suggests that there isn't any necessity for mpc fitting?
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

royjohn wrote:
jaw04 wrote:

Quote:
If only one mouthpiece size was available, people would still be able to play trumpet just fine. The idea that you have a particular rim size that is perfectly fit for your chops is a marketing gimmick.


I would not deny that many people can play on a middle of the road mpc like a Bach 3C just fine. Whether they are playing as well as they can is another thing. If different mouthpiece sizes are not necessary, then a whole lot of trumpet players are being duped, and it seems that the more expert the player, the more duping they get, because it does seem that there's a high percentage of pros who are quite discriminating in their mouthpiece choice.

I myself need a very large mpc to play my best. I'm sure there are people who are the exact opposite. On natural trumpet, I tried a replica Bull mpc, the smaller one, and I just wasn't able to play the high register at all. The larger Bull mpc works just fine and it is the same diameter as my valved Bb mpc.

While it may make some kind of average group sense to give all the high schoolers a 3C, I don't think this proves that they are all playing their best on it...just perhaps better as a group than on their former 7C.

Is there actually any data that suggests that there isn't any necessity for mpc fitting?
It is not a question of playing your best, it is about personal preference you want. If you prefer playing a bigger mouthpiece, great. I myself play a 1.25C diameter. That doesn't mean I can't play a 3C or a 10.5C, it's just I like the feel of a 1.25C better, for what I do. It's like choosing a guitar pick. If you choose to play a thick pick for the style of music you play, or a thin pick, that's cool. Or strings. Some people like heavy gauge for their music some people like thinner gauge. But those choices have nothing to do with anatomy or something deep down inside of the player that demands they can only play .78 mm picks. There is nothing natural about playing any musical instrument, we adapt to the equipment.
Asking everyone in a high school marching band to play a middle of the road mouthpiece instead of a small diameter is perfectly reasonable and it is not shoddy pedagogy. If trumpets all came with the mouthpieces attached to the instrument and were not debatable, we would not have mouthpiece debates. It is a privilege that we can choose what mouthpiece we play, but not a necessity.
Your point about will certain players not play their best on a 3C vs their previous piece? Keep in mind we are talking about children and not professionals. They probably have not tried that many mouthpieces and whatever they are using is most likely the piece they started on. It is not doing them any kind of a disservice to ask them to size up to a 3C, and they will definitely get more projection out of it than a 7C.

Trumpet players are not being duped by having options to choose from. But that is different than saying that some players are being like, discriminated against for being asked to play a 3C. The idea that they NEED a particular size to play at their best is not true. We can adapt to the equipment just like we adapt to using the same pencils even though our hands are different sizes.

Children sometimes play basketball with smaller balls when they are little, eventually they all play on the same balls the pros use.


Last edited by Jaw04 on Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
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david johnson
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I taught 40 years. Everyone started on the Bach or Benge 7c that came with the horn. I kept some 5c and 3c in the drawer to adjust a kid to what I thought would work better for them if needed. Had some Conn 4, also...but mostly Bach mpcs.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece Demand - Failure of Public School Music Educa Reply with quote

Denny Schreffler wrote:
I’ve got a friend in Texas whose trumpet-playing son is starting in a HS that has a large marching band.

The assistant BD in charge of high brass has told the incoming freshmen that they need to switch to a “3C” from anything smaller, if they’re not already on one — to open up their sound.

I thought that this kind of mindless and mythical misguided misinformation had withered on its rootless vine, but — no.

Where and how can anyone get a music education degree at any level that perpetuates this kind shoddy pedagogy concerning individual anatomy, individual embouchures, mouthpiece variables, and sound production?

—Denny


The outrage. Sounds like you would reccomend all the kids play a different size then? How is that any better?
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece Demand - Failure of Public School Music Educa Reply with quote

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
Denny Schreffler wrote:
I’ve got a friend in Texas whose trumpet-playing son is starting in a HS that has a large marching band.

The assistant BD in charge of high brass has told the incoming freshmen that they need to switch to a “3C” from anything smaller, if they’re not already on one — to open up their sound.

I thought that this kind of mindless and mythical misguided misinformation had withered on its rootless vine, but — no.

Where and how can anyone get a music education degree at any level that perpetuates this kind shoddy pedagogy concerning individual anatomy, individual embouchures, mouthpiece variables, and sound production?

—Denny


The outrage. Sounds like you would reccomend all the kids play a different size then? How is that any better?


Someone missed the point.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece Demand - Failure of Public School Music Educa Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:
Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
Denny Schreffler wrote:
I’ve got a friend in Texas whose trumpet-playing son is starting in a HS that has a large marching band.

The assistant BD in charge of high brass has told the incoming freshmen that they need to switch to a “3C” from anything smaller, if they’re not already on one — to open up their sound.

I thought that this kind of mindless and mythical misguided misinformation had withered on its rootless vine, but — no.

Where and how can anyone get a music education degree at any level that perpetuates this kind shoddy pedagogy concerning individual anatomy, individual embouchures, mouthpiece variables, and sound production?

—Denny


The outrage. Sounds like you would reccomend all the kids play a different size then? How is that any better?


Someone missed the point.
You are missing the point, what would you do Tom? Ask the kids to go on a mouthpiece safari to find their perfect mouthpiece that magically matches their ever-changing dental structure? That is unreasonable.
You should get the kids on a middle of the road mouthpiece when they are in high school and have been playing a while. But I guess my pedagogy is shoddy and I don't deserve my degrees. Let's hear from all the people that have never taught nor played professionally to tell me how wrong I am.
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mattdalton
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with Denny here. No kid should be forced to change to a 3C from something smaller diameter if there is no issue with their playing. It's the "need to switch" that Denny's objecting to, not using a 3C as a starting point.

David Johnson's "...to adjust a kid to what I thought would work better for them if needed" is the pedagogy I learned, as well as common sense.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:

Quote:
It is not a question of playing your best, it is about personal preference you want. If you prefer playing a bigger mouthpiece, great. I myself play a 1.25C diameter. That doesn't mean I can't play a 3C or a 10.5C, it's just I like the feel of a 1.25C better, for what I do.


So there's no difference for you between a 10.5C and a 1.25C? You just feel more comfortable? Shouldn't you be able to play a 3C just as well, since there is no difference? If there's no difference why aren't you playing on a 3C?

I think your guitar pick analogy is not precise. All the picks fit your hand about the same. My feet are a certain size, so a certain shoe size fits better and feels more comfortable. I walk better in the more comfortable shoes. My lips are a certain size and configuration, so a certain mouthpiece feels more comfortable. I also play better on one that fits me. I literally can't play much in the upper register on a small piece...I guess I bottom out in it.

Some of your reply to me confuses me with the other guy. I never said it was malpractice to give all the high schoolers a 3C. If that is what you have as an average mpc, it might make good sense. Just don't tell me that every kid is going to play well and play his best on a 3C. Some will do better with something bigger or smaller.

I don't know of any mouthpiece maker or well known teacher who says everyone should play the same mouthpiece. If you're saying that mouthpiece selection has become an obsession with some people, that most people can play on many different mouthpieces, I would agree with you. But I think you've taken an extreme position and painted yourself into a corner. But that's OK, different strokes for different folks.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

royjohn wrote:
Jaw04 wrote:

Quote:
It is not a question of playing your best, it is about personal preference you want. If you prefer playing a bigger mouthpiece, great. I myself play a 1.25C diameter. That doesn't mean I can't play a 3C or a 10.5C, it's just I like the feel of a 1.25C better, for what I do.


So there's no difference for you between a 10.5C and a 1.25C? You just feel more comfortable? Shouldn't you be able to play a 3C just as well, since there is no difference? If there's no difference why aren't you playing on a 3C?

I think your guitar pick analogy is not precise. All the picks fit your hand about the same. My feet are a certain size, so a certain shoe size fits better and feels more comfortable. I walk better in the more comfortable shoes. My lips are a certain size and configuration, so a certain mouthpiece feels more comfortable. I also play better on one that fits me. I literally can't play much in the upper register on a small piece...I guess I bottom out in it.

Some of your reply to me confuses me with the other guy. I never said it was malpractice to give all the high schoolers a 3C. If that is what you have as an average mpc, it might make good sense. Just don't tell me that every kid is going to play well and play his best on a 3C. Some will do better with something bigger or smaller.

I don't know of any mouthpiece maker or well known teacher who says everyone should play the same mouthpiece. If you're saying that mouthpiece selection has become an obsession with some people, that most people can play on many different mouthpieces, I would agree with you. But I think you've taken an extreme position and painted yourself into a corner. But that's OK, different strokes for different folks.
There are definitely differences between the sizes. They feel, respond, and sound differently. I have played 3C ballpark off and on for 20 years. I am a professional trumpet player and I have been looking for different things in my career.
It's a lot different deal for a high schooler. They shouldn't be trying every size out there and that is not practical.
You probably can't play in the upper register on a smaller mouthpiece because that is a specialized tool. You could figure it out if you really wanted to, but that is not necessary. Most people should be using a "3C-ish" mouthpiece and not a small mouthpiece. You just proved my point.

And finally to your point that mouthpiece makers don't recommend that everyone play the same mouthpiece.... no kidding! That is how they make money. There is a need for different mouthpieces for professional player based on what music they are playing. But that is not based on physical characteristics of the player... it is about the sound they are going for. It is not a matter of shoe sizes, it is a matter of shoe styles (running shoes, boots, flip flops). This teacher is recommending that everyone wear gym shoes (3C) instead of flip flops.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Utterly foolish thinking. Easier for the band director to demand 3C's be played by everybody. When I went to HS, our band director was a trumpet player. He never demanded that everybody played any particular mouthpiece, although he himself played a 3C. He used to comment on what a great low register one kid had, and that kid played a 10 1/2C. That is what surprised my band director.The 3C like any other mouthpiece will fit some and not fit others. It has the shallowest C cup in Bach's line.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, that escalated really quickly.

I suppose the how and why makes all the difference. If the advisor sees that the students are struggling with equipment that’s wrong for them, then a middle-ground mouthpiece is probably good and helpful advice. If the student is the next Nakariakov and doing very well, but is forced by an advisor to use a mouthpiece that ruins their playing…that’d be a different matter. I guess it all depends on the context and the proficiency of the player in question.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:52 am    Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece Demand - Failure of Public School Music Educa Reply with quote

Denny Schreffler wrote:
...
The assistant BD in charge of high brass has told the incoming freshmen that they need to switch to a “3C” from anything smaller, if they’re not already on one ...

---------------------------
The part about 'need to switch' is troubling.
Was it given as an 'order'?
Perhaps it was just an 'opinion' and 'suggestion' about the 3C - use of the word 'need' can have slightly different meanings depending on the context.
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B. Scriver
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the football team were asked to all wear the same size shoes, this would be national news.

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gregplo
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I moved from Junior High to High School, my band director made me switch from the Conn 4 that I had been playing since the 4th grade to a Bach 3C...it was not a suggestion...it was forced...he even took my Conn 4 away from me. I hated the 3C from the moment I put it on my lips. I instantly lost range and endurance, and it took a couple of years to get back to where I was. The inside of the rim always felt quite sharp to my chops, it always felt too large, and I was simply never comfortable on the Bach 3C...never.

Fast forward 25 years, and I had finally had enough of the 3C. I started looking for other mouthpieces and ordered several from Mouthpiece Express that were a little smaller than the 3C. I settled on a Marcinkiewicz 5 at the time....which I still own and play from time to time. Mostly I play a Curry 7M and Curry 50M these days. I take the 3C out every now and then, and yup...I still HATE it.

Do size 12 shoes fit every person? Nope? Then don't try to make people use a mouthpiece that doesn't fit!
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Tony Scodwell
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:46 am    Post subject: Mouthpieces Reply with quote

My goodness, I studied with Arnold Jacobs in high school and not once did he question the 10 1/2C Bach I used at the time. What he did question was the lack of freedom in my airstream and I never tongued anything in my lessons. He had me playing Brandt french horn etudes and slur everything keeping my air moving evenly. He said to watch my tuning slide come in as my airstream became more effective and of course it did. I guess he might have known how to "free up my sound" on that small mouthpiece.

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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with the OP on this one. Perceived opening up the sound is an absurd reason to force students onto any arbitrarily chosen mouthpiece.

My teacher who is about as good as you can get tells of a former teacher of his that compelled that he and all his students upsize to exactly the same mouthpiece. It almost ended my teacher's playing career.

I have no issue if an adviser finds a student struggling on a bent dime that he recommends a more middle-of-the-road piece.
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