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When is it time to move on from one exercise to another?


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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:35 am    Post subject: When is it time to move on from one exercise to another? Reply with quote

When is it time to move on from one exercise to another?

For sake of discussion, let's make a couple of assumptions.

First, we are talking about a beginner or intermediate level player, not a pro.

Second, assume that you are working through two exercise books, Clarke Technical Studies and Earl Irons. I am leaving out the Arban book because it really isn't arranged to play through from cover to cover. Let's keep this simple. This isn't about what material you are practicing, but how to practice the material that you are practicing.

Method 1. Play through both books sequentially and advance to the next lesson when you have "mastered" the exercise you are working on (which could take months). Let's not get into how you would determine whether or not the exercise is mastered - not all of us are going to reach Rafael Mendez proficiency. So, just mastered, whatever that means to each of us.

Method 2. Play through the books spending one week on each exercise and then moving along. Then when you get to the end of the books, begin again.

Method 3. Forget playing through in sequence. Just pick and choose the exercises that will provide the biggest bang for the buck based on the performance repertoire you are perfecting.

So, what are the pros and cos of each model and is there a better model out there?

Warm regards,
Grits
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Avan
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:09 pm    Post subject: Practice Reply with quote

I have used all the methods you describe, presently my practice is more goal oriented.

I figure if the practice routine is well rounded and you notice daily improvement and or weekly improvement in your goals your doing something correctly.

I actually don't move on until I can do the exercise with clarity and not have to think about it, no matter what frequency I reach.



Just my thoughts.
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With developing students, my approach is to maximize progress while still promoting a mindset of mastering stuff. Essentially, when I assign something, I usually have a specific goal in mind. Once that goal is achieved, we move on, even if "mastery" hasn't happened.

As you work on some assigned material, there usually reaches a point of diminishing returns where you just need to become a better player. At that point, it might be time to try something else for a while. When we return to the same material later, hopefully, the student is a better player and they can have new goals to achieve.

To put it in extreme terms, if you only worked on a second line G until you could articulate it perfectly and sound like Maurice Andre, you'd never work on another note. I like to make multiple passes through the same stuff, each time approaching it with higher goals.

So set a short-term goal and once you've achieved that, move on to something else. This way, you maximize progress.

So for Clarke 2, maybe the goal would be to first learn the fingerings for each, then return at some later point and work on it focusing on simply ease of production, then speed, dynamics, breath control, articulations, other modes, variations in patterns, etc. Each time through the studies has a specific goal to maintain progress and not get overwhelmed.

On a related note, Chris Kase wrote a nice book of Clarke variations that's worth exploring. One big thing from the book that helped me to organize my practice is that rather than working up chromatically for each study (F, the F#, the G, etc), he moves in 4ths. This allows you to cover more range more efficiently and keeps things a little more fresh.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends on the needs of the individual. There is no method.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:27 am    Post subject: Re: When is it time to move on from one exercise to another? Reply with quote

Grits Burgh wrote:

Method 1. Play through both books sequentially and advance to the next lesson when you have "mastered" the exercise you are working on (which could take months). Let's not get into how you would determine whether or not the exercise is mastered - not all of us are going to reach Rafael Mendez proficiency. So, just mastered, whatever that means to each of us.

Method 2. Play through the books spending one week on each exercise and then moving along. Then when you get to the end of the books, begin again.

Method 3. Forget playing through in sequence. Just pick and choose the exercises that will provide the biggest bang for the buck based on the performance repertoire you are perfecting.


Somewhere between Method 1 & 2 for development; Method 3 for maintenance.

You stay on an exercise long enough to see improvement/development but to the point where you've plateaued or you're starting to get frustrated and dispirited.
For serious students etc a couple of weeks of diligent practice is usually the sweet spot. For example, with Irons, if you've worked on one or two of the exercises diligently for a couple of weeks, you've probably gotten all there is to get out of it *for now*. So you move on to the next couple.

With Clarke, if you're doing them with different models (single tongue, K tongue, Double/Triple Tongue, Slurred being the usual), then you'd want to spend a couple of weeks on each. model as there are a lot of keys. So that's ~2 months for each chapter.

Then when you've gone through the whole book (about a year), you take a break for your own sanity then begin again.

Depending on how much time you have, you might start working on multiple studies simulatenously for each 2 week period etc.

You just keep looping through the book until you are getting them all up to speed.

Then you can start saving time by focusing on the keys etc that you're still stumbling with. i.e. you probably don't need to do C major, F major, G major at this point... But you may still need to hit those A major ones.

At some point, you end up using the tech work to keep the machine in shape, and then choosing specific exercises that target your weakness or repertoire needs.

If you want a method per se, it would be: "Working on what you're not good at, starting from a level that's obtainable, and continue to raise the bar."
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends, There are a few things to consider. First, Irons is generally progressive in nature; Clarke (largely) is not. So in the case of Irons, it might make sense to wait a while to get a concept down before moving on. That would argue in favor of your method 1. In the case of Clarke, "mastery" of any one study does not necessarily make you more proficient in the next study. Each study offers different kinds of challenges (although the range covered by each exercise does increase as you progress, so they are progressive in that way). That argues in favor of your method 2.

Second, in the case of Irons, the range of the exercises increase as you progress through the book. If a student does not have a solid upper register, some of the exercises -- or portions of those exercises anyway -- will simply be impossible to play even if the student has "mastered" the previous exercise. That is generally not true in Clarke, where most of each study can be played -- with a few exceptions -- even if a student's range is limited.
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lakejw
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do what you want - where your intuition takes you. I think the idea of playing through an entire book and you'll suddenly be Mr. or Mrs. Superstar is misguided - not that that's what you're asking. But, I frequently switch between books, and have been revisiting some for ~25 years, on and off.

If you're being honest with yourself about your development, you'll know what you need to work on. Find (or write) exercises that challenge those aspects of your playing.

Alternatively, work on the things that excite you. Nothing quite so wasteful of time and chops as slaving away half-heartedly on exercises that don't engage you. If Irons makes you want to play, then it's Irons. Or Goldman, Arban, or Frink.

Consistency and focus are the all-important guides.
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Practice Reply with quote

Avan wrote:
I have used all the methods you describe, presently my practice is more goal oriented.

I figure if the practice routine is well rounded and you notice daily improvement and or weekly improvement in your goals your doing something correctly.

I actually don't move on until I can do the exercise with clarity and not have to think about it, no matter what frequency I reach.


Avan, good post. That makes sense - goal oriented.

Warm regards,
Grits
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JoseLindE4 wrote:
With developing students, my approach is to maximize progress while still promoting a mindset of mastering stuff. Essentially, when I assign something, I usually have a specific goal in mind. Once that goal is achieved, we move on, even if "mastery" hasn't happened.

As you work on some assigned material, there usually reaches a point of diminishing returns where you just need to become a better player. At that point, it might be time to try something else for a while. When we return to the same material later, hopefully, the student is a better player and they can have new goals to achieve.

To put it in extreme terms, if you only worked on a second line G until you could articulate it perfectly and sound like Maurice Andre, you'd never work on another note. I like to make multiple passes through the same stuff, each time approaching it with higher goals.

So set a short-term goal and once you've achieved that, move on to something else. This way, you maximize progress.

So for Clarke 2, maybe the goal would be to first learn the fingerings for each, then return at some later point and work on it focusing on simply ease of production, then speed, dynamics, breath control, articulations, other modes, variations in patterns, etc. Each time through the studies has a specific goal to maintain progress and not get overwhelmed.

On a related note, Chris Kase wrote a nice book of Clarke variations that's worth exploring. One big thing from the book that helped me to organize my practice is that rather than working up chromatically for each study (F, the F#, the G, etc), he moves in 4ths. This allows you to cover more range more efficiently and keeps things a little more fresh.


JoseLindE4, there are several good ideas here: goal oriented, point of diminishing returns, progress vs mastery, moving up by 4ths.

Thanks for taking the time to post.

Warm regards,
Grits
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
It depends on the needs of the individual. There is no method.


Bill, I think that I catch your drift. There is no "one size fits all" method. Practice should be tailored to needs.

Thanks,

Warm regards,
Grits
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:52 pm    Post subject: Re: When is it time to move on from one exercise to another? Reply with quote

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:


Somewhere between Method 1 & 2 for development; Method 3 for maintenance.

You stay on an exercise long enough to see improvement/development but to the point where you've plateaued or you're starting to get frustrated and dispirited. For serious students etc a couple of weeks of diligent practice is usually the sweet spot. For example, with Irons, if you've worked on one or two of the exercises diligently for a couple of weeks, you've probably gotten all there is to get out of it *for now*. So you move on to the next couple.

With Clarke, if you're doing them with different models (single tongue, K tongue, Double/Triple Tongue, Slurred being the usual), then you'd want to spend a couple of weeks on each. model as there are a lot of keys. So that's ~2 months for each chapter.

Then when you've gone through the whole book (about a year), you take a break for your own sanity then begin again.

Depending on how much time you have, you might start working on multiple studies simulatenously for each 2 week period etc.

You just keep looping through the book until you are getting them all up to speed.

Then you can start saving time by focusing on the keys etc that you're still stumbling with. i.e. you probably don't need to do C major, F major, G major at this point... But you may still need to hit those A major ones.

At some point, you end up using the tech work to keep the machine in shape, and then choosing specific exercises that target your weakness or repertoire needs.

If you want a method per se, it would be: "Working on what you're not good at, starting from a level that's obtainable, and continue to raise the bar."


Trumpetingbynurture, thanks for posting.

Somewhere between Method 1 & 2 for development; Method 3 for maintenance. I can see the logic of this. Hopefully I will get to the maintenance level some day.

With Clarke, if you're doing them with different models (single tongue, K tongue, Double/Triple Tongue, Slurred being the usual), then you'd want to spend a couple of weeks on each. model as there are a lot of keys. So that's ~2 months for each chapter. Uh, ahem, that is, I've got a bit lax in practicing K tongue. Good reminder. I do try to practice double and triple tonguing daily.

Depending on how much time you have, you might start working on multiple studies simulatenously for each 2 week period etc. Yes. This helps break up the monotony quite a bit.

Much obliged.

Warm regards,
Grits
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dayton wrote:
It depends, There are a few things to consider. First, Irons is generally progressive in nature; Clarke (largely) is not. So in the case of Irons, it might make sense to wait a while to get a concept down before moving on. That would argue in favor of your method 1. In the case of Clarke, "mastery" of any one study does not necessarily make you more proficient in the next study. Each study offers different kinds of challenges (although the range covered by each exercise does increase as you progress, so they are progressive in that way). That argues in favor of your method 2.

Second, in the case of Irons, the range of the exercises increase as you progress through the book. If a student does not have a solid upper register, some of the exercises -- or portions of those exercises anyway -- will simply be impossible to play even if the student has "mastered" the previous exercise. That is generally not true in Clarke, where most of each study can be played -- with a few exceptions -- even if a student's range is limited.


Dayton, thanks for posting.

...in the case of Irons, the range of the exercises increase as you progress through the book. If a student does not have a solid upper register, some of the exercises -- or portions of those exercises anyway -- will simply be impossible to play even if the student has "mastered" the previous exercise. That is generally not true in Clarke, where most of each study can be played -- with a few exceptions -- even if a student's range is limited. Because of the range requirement, I have been sticking with mastery (more or less) for Irons. It seems to me that one of the striking improvements I am experience is much greater facility in the upper range (though sound and flexibility are also improving). I am very much impressed with the Irons book. it has been very helpful. I even like the tonguing exercises at the end of the book; those seem to be overlooked in comments on TH.

Warm regards,
Grits
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LakeJW, thanks for posting. You sound like the creative type - makes sense, a jazz player living in New York City. I've added Goldman and Frink to my exercise routine.

Warm regards,
Grits
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MrOlds
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Along the lines of what LakeJW wrote, it’s a good idea to think about the forest so you don’t get lost in the trees.

I’d make a plan to identify the skills necessary to play the music you want to play. Then identify the stuff that needs the most work. Then get busy shedding on stuff that will get you there.

Hypothetically out of the Clarke book you may discover there are three or four exercises that you really need. And you may never need all the keys to be equally fluent. The music you want to play might not need every exercise in every key.

Picasso developed the specific technique he needed for his vision. He didn’t spend years learning to faithfully reproduce Rembrandt’s work.

Just sayin…
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrOlds wrote:
Hypothetically out of the Clarke book you may discover there are three or four exercises that you really need. And you may never need all the keys to be equally fluent. The music you want to play might not need every exercise in every key.

Picasso developed the specific technique he needed for his vision. He didn’t spend years learning to faithfully reproduce Rembrandt’s work.


MrOlds, thanks for posting. You raise a point that I have pondered a bit myself. I can't remember the last time that I played a piece in the key of Gb (I'm sure it must have been when I was playing in a pit band for a show - I guess there is something about accommodating vocalists that puts trumpets in unusual keys). I was tempted to not worry about playing in Gb, B major and so forth but decided against it. I think that part of the benefit of playing in those scales is developing finger dexterity that translates across the board to every key. But I take your point; I'm not worried that I cannot play the Gb exercises as fluidly as I can play in C, F or G. It is a much more efficient use of time to identify the skills you need and target those.

Shaye Cohn is a good example of a trumpet player (technically cornet player) who has mastered the techniques she needs to play the type of music that she wants to play. She concentrates on playing music that people like to hear and makes no attempt to dazzle listeners with technical brilliance. She takes full advantage of her skill set, great sound and satisfying improvisation. There may be more technically brilliant trumpet players out there, but I could listen to Shaye all day long and I couldn't say that about many other gifted players.

I sometimes wonder why I bother working on notes above high C; I'm never going to play those notes in church. I'm not a lead player and I don't play in a big band. I suppose I do it strictly for the challenge. Maybe out of an inflated ego, or maybe just because it is so much fun to let a G above high C rip and then pull the horn off the face to get that little kissing sound at the end. That sort of thing would scandalize the Women's Missionary Society, so I confine it to my basement. But I keep doing it.

Warm regards,
Grits
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MrOlds
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Grits,

Re Shaye Cohn: I really enjoy their YouTube videos. I haven’t googled her but my impression of her ensemble is a bunch of really well trained young players who decided to focus on early jazz performance practices. They sound to me like people who could have played lots of things really well but decided this was their thing. And they do it very well.

But there is another route that bypasses the “I learned to play everything” and focuses on “this is my voice”. In a way, the “this is my voice” thing is much harder to find.

Best,
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting question! I don't think there's necessarily any one right answer, but just sharing some thoughts:

I think that diminishing marginal returns, or maybe more tangibly, the mental image of a fruit tree comes into play here. At the onset of practicing a given exercise, assuming it's approached intelligently, consistently, and is basically at an appropriate level for the player, progress comes quickly. (This would be the low-hanging fruit being collected.)

After a little while, they've basically done all the stuff that's relatively accessible at their level, and have the rough outline of the piece in pretty usable shape. At that point, progress becomes slower and harder. I think this is probably the most important phase of practice, because this is where it becomes clear what things are still holding them back, despite general basic preparation, and these are what most need improvement. (Obviously, in the fruit tree comparison, this would be the harder to reach, but still relatively plentiful middle parts of the tree.)

At a certain point, they can probably see areas where it still needs improvement, but progress slows to a near-stop. (That would be the fruit at the outermost inaccessible extremities, where it's very difficult/dangerous to reach.) Tempting as it is to try to get to 100%, I don't think this is a very productive space for most students to be, most of the time.

I think the really hard, slow progress phase is probably good to experience a little bit, so the student can understand the areas where, despite their best current efforts, they simply don't have the tools to do a given thing, but once that understanding is reached, it's time to move on. That might be a controversial opinion, but for people in primarily developmental phases of playing, at a certain point, I think it's better to move on to a new piece, and apply those lessons. (Then, maybe cycle back to the original 6-12 months later.)

From what I observe in my students, at a certain point in learning new music, I think they're struggling at least as much with whatever bad habits they've built up in approaching a given piece as they are with the inherent challenges of the music itself, and generally that's when I want them to move on. It's different if it's something for a recital or competition, but if it's just playing a piece for the sake of learning, I think the early and middle phases are just a better return on the investment of effort. (For some students, that sometimes means moving on before they would prefer, but there's a lot of music out there, and a lot of techniques to master. Once they've made a good step or two forward in a specific area, it's probably time to start looking for the next direction, in my experience.)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The answer depends on the player’s ability and patience. Sometimes Claude Gordon would add additional models and variations when he knew the exercise hadn’t accomplished what he wanted yet. Other times he would keep students on the same exact set of exercises for months until it caused the changes he wanted. As an example, I had probably done the Colin Advanced Lip Flexibility book for 3 years with 3 separate times of 4 months each time. But, later he kept me on 3, 5, 9, 14 for 6-9 months. I was starting to get annoyed with him asking when we could change it. He kept stringing me along longer. Then, I noticed that in 9 my high D literally felt no different than a low C with the effort and how relaxed I was. I asked him about some things I had noticed and then I was in love with those exercises again and he changed to something new to learn and adapt to.

Here’s something I wrote for the preface of an upcoming book that might prod some more thoughts on this topic.
https://www.purtle.com/what-is-systematic-practice

Jeff
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: When is it time to move on from one exercise to another? Reply with quote

Grits Burgh wrote:
...
Second, assume that you are working through two exercise books, Clarke Technical Studies and Earl Irons. I am leaving out the Arban book because it really isn't arranged to play through from cover to cover. Let's keep this simple. This isn't about what material you are practicing, but how to practice the material that you are practicing. ...

-----------------------------
A different scenario is when playing what should be a simple exercise cannot be reliably done every time. E.g. sometimes miss an interval, or don't get a clean sound on every note.
An exercise such as that should be played and practiced often, so that reliable execution is achieved. Or, have several different exercises that provide similar training - so you don't have to play the same one all the time.

Yes it can get boring and frustrating, but it is a basic skill that needs to be developed.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn’t the simplest answer when you are satisfied with results given the place you are at that time. Sometimes we or I try to take on things I’m not quite ready for and have to punt back to a more simple exercise that I hadn’t mastered before. It seems a common sense type question. Sometimes you do have to reach beyond comfort to show areas needing work. Many things that were so very easy in 60’s 70’s are needing to be relearned and refined after 40+ hrs off I have to almost relearn. Some things I have become better at than before. I used to play at least 5 hours per day and my current 3 x 1/2 hr aren’t going to get me back to where I was but it’s good enough to keep me amused and up for community bands.
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