Mouthpiece Demand - Failure of Public School Music Educators

[Denny Schreffler]

Well —

I intentionally kicked the hornets nest on this one and I have not been surprised at the sharply divided opinions that have flown out

• I am not against the 3C. I have used them (with different setups) on trumpets and cornets, and, I have recommended them to the right students at the right time.

• My point is — requiring young students to play the same middle-of-the-road [– I disagree with this assessment of a Bach 3C –] mouthpiece, is a lazy, blanket approach which will work very well for a few kids, acceptably well for many, and might be disastrous for a few ◄ This is shoddy pedagogy — own it.

• When I started Jr Hi, in the early ‘60s, the band director (a highly accomplished trombonist) had a mid-sized, Bach mouthpiece display/trial case. From that, we decided on a 9C (Mt Vernon at that time), which I bought at a local music store and which I played until the 9th grade when I switched to a 6C (also after trying it from the same sample case). As a senior in HS, and playing pretty well, my band director/private teacher (a professional tpt player) put me on a 1¼C with a #26 throat. We don’t have to send kids on their own mouthpiece safari. Half a day spent with individuals in the entire trumpet section and a good set of trial mpcs would be valuable, and, I’m sure that not all would end up with a 3C.

Immediately below is a non-TH, personal response about this topic from a well-regarded Texas music educator (but not a HS Band Director) and private trumpet teacher.

—Denny


"Welcome to the worst of what Texas band programs have to offer. And these types can be extremely stubborn and difficult. 

They are not all this way, but there are a lot of them. 

So, the belief of these band directors is that 3C is the ONLY right mouthpiece to get “The Sound”. It’s not just about playing a bigger mouthpiece.  It’s about conforming to some ridiculous, make-believe standard that is passed down from BD to BD. 

I don’t have any real answers to this problem. In the past I have had my students play on 3C at school then switch away from school. 

Not ideal. 

I have had some students fight it - with their parents. But all that does is create a terrible learning environment for the student. 

Wish I had something better to tell you." 


A few uncategorized comments to my post from forum members ...

if somebody is recommending 3c for incoming marching band kids chances are that he knows it [is] very likely to turn out good.

Every one of my private students has benefitted from moving to a 3C or Bobby Shew Jazz in high school, their sound gets bigger and their articulations clearer, regardless of embouchure, teeth, lips, etc.

The idea that you have a particular rim size that is perfectly fit for your chops is a marketing gimmick.

I would not deny that many people can play on a middle of the road mpc like a Bach 3C just fine. Whether they are playing as well as they can is another thing. If different mouthpiece sizes are not necessary, then a whole lot of trumpet players are being duped, and it seems that the more expert the player, the more duping they get, because it does seem that there's a high percentage of pros who are quite discriminating in their mouthpiece choice.

Asking everyone in a high school marching band to play a middle of the road mouthpiece instead of a small diameter is perfectly reasonable and it is not shoddy pedagogy.

 It is not doing them any kind of a disservice to ask them to size up to a 3C, and they will definitely get more projection out of it than a 7C.

But that is different than saying that some players are being like, discriminated against for being asked to play a 3C. The idea that they NEED a particular size to play at their best is not true. We can adapt to the equipment just like we adapt to using the same pencils even though our hands are different sizes.

Sounds like you would reccomend all the kids play a different size then? How is that any better?

What would you do … ? Ask the kids to go on a mouthpiece safari to find their perfect mouthpiece that magically matches their ever-changing dental structure? That is unreasonable. You should get the kids on a middle of the road mouthpiece when they are in high school and have been playing a while. But I guess my pedagogy is shoddy and I don't deserve my degrees. Let's hear from all the people that have never taught nor played professionally to tell me how wrong I am.

It's the "need to switch" that Denny's objecting to, not using a 3C as a starting point.
"...to adjust a kid to what I thought would work better for them if needed" is the pedagogy I learned, as well as common sense.

 Just don't tell me that every kid is going to play well and play his best on a 3C. Some will do better with something bigger or smaller.

It's a lot different deal for a high schooler. They shouldn't be trying every size out there and that is not practical.

… to your point that mouthpiece makers don't recommend that everyone play the same mouthpiece.... no kidding! That is how they make money. There is a need for different mouthpieces for professional player based on what music they are playing. But that is not based on physical characteristics of the player...

Utterly foolish thinking. Easier for the band director to demand 3C's be played by everybody. 

 I guess it all depends on the context and the proficiency of the player in question.

If the football team were asked to all wear the same size shoes, this would be national news.

When I moved from Junior High to High School, my band director made me switch from the Conn 4 that I had been playing since the 4th grade to a Bach 3C...it was not a suggestion...it was forced...he even took my Conn 4 away from me. I hated the 3C from the moment I put it on my lips. I instantly lost range and endurance, and it took a couple of years to get back to where I was.

My goodness, I studied with Arnold Jacobs in high school and not once did he question the 10 1/2C Bach I used at the time.

My teacher who is about as good as you can get tells of a former teacher of his that compelled that he and all his students upsize to exactly the same mouthpiece. It almost ended my teacher's playing career.

[Jaw04]

[Denny Schreffler]

[JayKosta]

[Irving]

Not having a student that has had a disastrous experience with a 3C is no excuse to change their mouthpiece. Especially if it is a mass change which involves the whole section. A student's mouthpiece should not be changed without a darn good reason. And it should never be a do it my way or the highway situation. Having a whole section playing the same mouthpiece will do absolutely NOTHING to homogenize the sound of a section. The next step would have band directors making their section play on the same type of embouchure...how would that work out?

A 3C is a large diameter mouthpiece. It isn't "middle of the road". So please take that into account band directors before you decide to put your entire section onto a 3C.

Last but not least, and this is for any high school kid that is in this situation. A band director has no special authority to change your mouthpiece, so if you don't want to change, then don't. I went to visit my sister one summer, and my nephew, who was in high school and played trumpet, was playing a 1C. I asked him why. Same story, the BD decided that the whole section had to play 1C's. I tried his, and it was a really wide one. I told him that it was way too wide to play comfortably. He didn't listen to me. He later quit the trumpet. Don't know if the 1C had anything to do with it, maybe?

[Crazy Finn]

It's a little interesting to complain about one directors' "one size fits all" approach while most student instruments do the same thing by having a version of the Bach 7C in the case for everyone to play.

FWIW, I think that the Yamaha version - the 11B4 - is a bit different than the 7C in several (IMO good) ways.
_________________
LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
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Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn

[Vin DiBona]

A great post from Irving!
Bud Herseth once recalled a conversation he had with Fritz Reiner after the CSO had received the Mt. Vernon C trumpets from Bach and each section member picked the horn he liked best.
Reiner asked shouldn't you all play the same mouthpiece as well? While they were all in the 1C area already, Bud told him individual players must choose the mouthpiece that fits them the best.
The modern orchestra is a special place and most players use big mouthpieces, but then you have John Hagstrom whose mouthpiece is around 16.3mm but with a 1B cup. I have one and the sound compares to a very large mouthpiece but it is much easier to play when you get above the staff.
Gerard Schwarz used a 5C with a big large throat and he had a fabulous sound.
Some young player might be great on a 3C which as Irving points out is not a middle of the road size, another on a 6C, another on a 7C, and another on a 9C.
R. Tomasek

[cheiden]

[Billy B]

Bottom line, unless the kid is seriously going after it, it won't matter. In that case, the private lesson instructor would need to step in.
_________________
Bill Bergren

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

Mouthpiece Express lists the difference in diameter for 7c to 3c as a move from 16.2mm to 16.3mm, whereas once you got to a 1.5c you're up to a 17mm rim. Moving to a 3c is actually a pretty small shift. And is't the 3c shallower?

I feel like there was another thread where someone had to do this and they found a way to test a box of 3cs just to find one that pretty matched their original piece. I wonder if the BD will accept another brand (Yamaha, Schilke) of similar size or if they can say, "my private teacher has asked me to play ____."

Just out of curiosity, how is the kid doing? Do they care one way or another about the 3c? I do feel like the 3c is a cult, but I would probably go along. The BD may have also found that many kids won't ever shift from whatever weird mouthpiece they are on unless they're asked to get a 3c.

[blbaumgarn]

To me it is simply an inappropriate request. Forget that this request was made in a h.s. setting. In my years I have heard quite a few college marching bands. I always liked Ohio University's all brass, perhaps that is why. If someone told their 15-20 trumpet players to all get the 3c there would have been a dropping of gloves and shedding helmets before "war." Everybody likes something just a little different. I had a Benge 7c that came with the horn when I bought it. I had to loan it out one night at a city band concert to a young guy that used to drive back from the twin cities to play once or twice a summer. He damaged his Bach and I threw him the Benge. When the concert was over he had to have it as he said, "it just feels comfortable." Sometimes our best sound is really in our perception, too. Besides, choosing the 3c for students throws out a comparable, Schilke, Yamaha, Curry, or whoever.
_________________
"There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush

[yinzbrass]

It may be that all-the-same is the point. Too often IMHO, HS marching band tries to emulate drum corps as much as possible. Corps look for a uniform sound through uniform equipment, sometimes to the point of outfitting their kids with sequentially serial numbered instruments. They also usually get excellent instruction from top flight instructors, but I'm not sure that's the part that always trickles down to the local HS marching trumpet line.
_________________
Tim Leenerts
Bb: '67 Bach 37, Monette B3 S3 Resonance
C: '09 Eastman 530, Monette C3
D/Eb: Besson/Kanstul, Monette E3 S3
A/Bb Picc: Early '70s Selmer 365, ACB 7PT
Bb Cornet: Getzen 3850 Custom, Wick 4B
Flugel: Dillon, Marcinkiewicz 3FLD

[Vin DiBona]

Mouthpiece Express has incorrect data for Bach sizes.
Here is what Laskey, Schilke, and Curry have measured the popular Bach sizes.
https://everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/Bach-Schilke_mpc_chart.html
Other modern manufacturers have basically identical measurements to these three.
R. Tomasek

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

Well, that's Bach's given measurements of their mouthpieces. The other measurements show a slightly wider variation, but many of us don't experience a huge change in moving from a 7c to 3c.

[kalijah]

[trickg]

Consider for a moment a few things:

1.) The largest percentage of high school aged kids aren't going to be able to truly discern a difference, for better or worse, between whatever else they may have been on and a 3C mouthpiece.

2.) Many high school kids wind up with a Schilke 14A4a paperweight in their case because they are looking for a magic pill mouthpiece to give them range that they have not developed.

3.) The kids who actually do know the difference and can tell are going to be in the vast minority, and will likely go on using whatever mouthpiece it is that works for them - the likelihood that a band director is going to force their star performers to make a completely unwarranted switch is pretty unlikely. (Some of those kids may already be on a 3C or bigger.)

To me this seems like much ado about nothing. For many kids a 3C is likely to be an improvement and it will at least keep them from playing a 14A4a.

Something else to consider - as a National Guard bandsman I had to do a trifecta of parades on July 3rd this year. (fortunately I was the drum major for the longest of them) My normal mouthpiece is a Marcinkiewicz #2, but I don't typically play well on that while marching, so I popped a Jupiter XO 3C in the case (it came with my 1600i Ingram) and I used that instead. I played markedly better on that while marching than I do with my normal mouthpiece. That's coming from a guy who has close to 40 years on the horn.

Perhaps the requirement to have the HS marching band trumpeters move to a 3C isn't such a bad idea after all.

Food for though.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[Speed]

Is it possible that the director in the OP's example trying to get uniformity in sound from the trumpet section?

Back in the dark ages, when we started band - typically 5th Grade - our band director had the new students and parents come to an after hours meeting to meet with a sales rep from a nearby music store. For beginning "trumpet" players, the instrument of choice that we were being led to was a Conn Director cornet. If we stuck with it for a few years, he encouraged us to switch to trumpet. He certainly did not insist, but he pointed us in the direction of a Bach Strad 37. Some bought a Strad, others didn't, but I remember hearing the band director say that he liked the sound of a Strad, and the section would sound really good if most of us played that particular instrument.

With that in mind, I wonder if the director in the OP's example felt like he could get away with requiring a 3C, but would cross a line to say something like, "You need to get a Bach 18037" in an attempt at uniformity.

Take care,
Marc Speed

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

There may be a back story here too. Maybe there was a trend where students were buying purple mouthpieces, or trying to play on screamers, or were using generic pieces of dubious quality.

I thought trickg's analysis was pretty good also. Sometimes you set a standard or offer a blanket recommendation and then allow for deviations.

[Pops]

[gregplo]