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Mouthpiece Demand - Failure of Public School Music Educators


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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pops wrote:
...
However; we also have some of the most wonderful BDs too. Caring, going above and beyond...

---------------------------------
Thanks for the information, and your thoughts about the situation.
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trumpet2012fhl
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a MS Director in TX that also helps out at the HS I have some thoughts on this topic since I get to see the students progress all the way through.

1) I don't think there is any harm in suggesting they try a different mouthpiece size. Too many times I encounter players in HS that have never once tried a different mouthpiece from starting in 5th or 6th grade. Their bodies have definitely changed since then so I do believe they should try other pieces.

2) I agree that too many directors think a big mouthpiece instantly equals a bigger warmer sound. While that may be true for a majority of players, there are some (me included) that don't sound good on larger mouthpieces (think 1.5C).

3) Since most beginners start with a 7C with their horn, I would probably suggest a 5C or 3C as a good place to start testing.

Lastly, I agree with one of the previous comments that suggested having a mouthpiece sizing kit. I think that it would be good for many programs to have loaner mouthpieces for students to try (maybe this would have been a better idea before COVID). I have a few more thoughts on this, but that's my 2 cents for now.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet2012fhl wrote:
1) I don't think there is any harm in suggesting they try a different mouthpiece size. Too many times I encounter players in HS that have never once tried a different mouthpiece from starting in 5th or 6th grade. Their bodies have definitely changed since then so I do believe they should try other pieces.


Nobody here disagrees.

The disagreement is this:

"If you play anything smaller than a 3C, then I'm putting you on a 3C."

Couched that way, which is apparently what happened, it wasn't a suggestion.

This is just as ridiculous as a college instructor telling his orchestral majors, "If you play anything smaller than a 1C, then I'm putting you on a 1C."
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:
trumpet2012fhl wrote:
1) I don't think there is any harm in suggesting they try a different mouthpiece size. Too many times I encounter players in HS that have never once tried a different mouthpiece from starting in 5th or 6th grade. Their bodies have definitely changed since then so I do believe they should try other pieces.


Nobody here disagrees.

The disagreement is this:

"If you play anything smaller than a 3C, then I'm putting you on a 3C."

Couched that way, which is apparently what happened, it wasn't a suggestion.

This is just as ridiculous as a college instructor telling his orchestral majors, "If you play anything smaller than a 1C, then I'm putting you on a 1C."
If you think its ridiculous let me guess, you have never been a teacher. "Suggesting" things to students means they will most likely not do what you suggest. I am tired of people that don't teach professionally or play professionally griping about how band directors or professional trumpet instructors have bad pedagogy and don't know what they are doing. Band directors and high brass specialists have a lot of training and experience, and make informed decisions.
I think people here online are the ones that are just parroting antiquated ideas that they have read or been told, with little or no experience, more so than people that are out there teaching kids every day. I would not be offended if the OP had not come out of the gates insulting educators.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:
trumpet2012fhl wrote:
1) I don't think there is any harm in suggesting they try a different mouthpiece size. Too many times I encounter players in HS that have never once tried a different mouthpiece from starting in 5th or 6th grade. Their bodies have definitely changed since then so I do believe they should try other pieces.


Nobody here disagrees.

The disagreement is this:

"If you play anything smaller than a 3C, then I'm putting you on a 3C."

Couched that way, which is apparently what happened, it wasn't a suggestion.

This is just as ridiculous as a college instructor telling his orchestral majors, "If you play anything smaller than a 1C, then I'm putting you on a 1C."
By the way, if you want to talk about orchestra majors, yeah the professor should tell them to play on nothing smaller than a 1.5C. That is just the way it is. If someone proves them wrong and rocks out on a 3C with a 1B underpart, more power to them. But if the professor never says anything to the students, or says, "play whatever you want" or "maybe try a 1.25C but do whatever you want" the students will go into an orchestral audition on a 7C and definitely NOT have the sound required to play in a professional orchestra. You need to play the right tool for the job.

What you all don't realize is teachers have relationships with their students. They tell them to play a 3C, and if for some reason one student is struggling, the teacher will understand and probably recommend they should try something different. But there is nothing wrong with enforcing students to at least give the larger piece a shot, and from my experience, it has literally worked 100 percent of time. I have never had a student sound better on a 7C than a 3C, and I'm not being hyperbolic or making stuff up to prove a point.

Also responding to someone else who said a 3C is not a middle of the road mouthpiece, I disagree. The main sizes, in Bach terms, are 1.25, 1.5, 3, 5, and 7. 3 is in the middle. The cup is also pretty standard. The backbore and throat, standard. It is definitely the middle of the road for trumpet playing.
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gregplo
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What you all don't realize is teachers have relationships with their students. They tell them to play a 3C, and if for some reason one student is struggling, the teacher will understand and probably recommend they should try something different. But there is nothing wrong with enforcing students to at least give the larger piece a shot, and from my experience, it has literally worked 100 percent of time. I have never had a student sound better on a 7C than a 3C, and I'm not being hyperbolic or making stuff up to prove a point.


Great theory, but 100% failed for me. My BD knew I was struggling on the 3C he forced me to play. He could hear it in my playing, and I told him I didn't like it AND that it hurt my chops physically. He ignored it all, and didn't suggest anything else. My subsequent trumpet teachers also ignored it...they looked at what I was playing and told me that was what they wanted me playing. FAIL!!! No one even attempted to try something different even though one of them had a showcase full of mouthpieces available to them. At the time I didn't know any better...I trusted them...they were the teacher, they had to be right. NOPE. Find the right mouthpiece for the individual that produces the right sound. To tell someone they need to play a 3C or a 1.5C or a 1C or any other size without actually working through the options is a cop out.
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JeffM729
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The concept of playing a uniform mouthpiece model is rooted in drum and bugle corps. Back in the days of the G bugle with a single valve pitched to D (think open and 1-3 valve only), arrangements tended to be written to be played on the higher partials of the instrument as very few notes below middle C were unavailable. Players would choose very shallow mouthpieces often with cushion rims. You would find lots of Rudy Mucks, Pardubas, Jet Tones, and Bach EW mouthpieces.

As the G bugle evolved to 2 and fully chromatic 3 valve models, along with the judging of Tone Quality & Intonation, corps began to move towards deeper, larger mouthpieces to compete as the quality of performance improved.

Given that the corps provided the brass instruments, each player in a section performs on the same model of instrument, a trend towards also playing on a similar type of mouthpiece developed. The preferences were towards Bachs in the 1 1/4, 1 1/2, and 3C range, Schilke and Yamahas 14-15 range, and the CG3. The theory is to get a more uniform sound and the ability to address pitch issues is made easier. This continues today, although exceptions for individuals are made.

I'm not here to discuss the issue of what marching bands currently do, but just to explain why some insist on a uniform size of mouthpiece as it has been successfully employed in the drum corps arena.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This discussion seems to have separated into 2 different approaches to mouthpiece choice and selection - and both can have good results (or not).

Method 1 - the teacher or BD demands (or strongly encourages) a change based on their personal experience, knowledge of the student, and preferences.
From the earlier discussions this seems to often be done without much explanation given to the student about what 'playing changes' are needed, and how switching to a different mouthpiece will give the desired results.
It's unclear whether there is much 'teaching' involved to help the student understand about mouthpieces - and that might be due to time constraints or other practicalities.

Method 2 - there is more experimentation to make the mouthpiece choice. This can result in a safari unless the player and the teacher/BD both have good communication skills, knowledge about mouthpiece types, and have a similar idea of what 'playing results' are the goal.
Some 'teaching' and 'learning' can happen with this method if attention is paid. This method can be time consuming, expensive, and delay advancement in other aspects of playing.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find myself surprised that this form where we routinely discuss how critical mouthpiece manufacturing tolerance is that so many folks are willing to say "to hell with a few thousandths, here's an entirely different mouthpiece. Figure it out!". And for what? There's nothing inherently better about a 3C. A case could easily be made that a 7C or 5C are more similar to the 1.5C or 1C that are favored for playing in orchestras. And are we still buying into the notion that bigger is better?
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delano
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it me or whatever but who cares what some assistant-BD in Texas is doing?
(or is this too Dutch again? )
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece Demand - Failure of Public School Music Educa Reply with quote

Denny Schreffler wrote:

...

The assistant BD in charge of high brass has told the incoming freshmen that they need to switch to a “3C” from anything smaller, if they’re not already on one — to open up their sound.
...
Where and how can anyone get a music education degree at any level that perpetuates this kind shoddy pedagogy concerning individual anatomy, individual embouchures, mouthpiece variables, and sound production?

—Denny

Unfortunately, this approach ,with is both Procrustean and Darwinian , works just fine - as long as you have a sufficient number of freshmen trumpet players to select from.

A majority will be able to play on the Bach 3C. Of those who can, some will get a sound that is too shrill, some will get a sound that is too dark, and so will not make the cut for marching band trumpet. The remainder will be able to produce "the sound" and ,if they have the required technique, will be accepted. (A few who are rejected for trumpet may have an opportunity to try out on mellophonium, or baritone.) As long as you end up with enough players to replace the out going seniors - this process works for the band as a whole.
The fans who attend high school football games expect the home team to win an appropriate number of games and expect the band to provide half time entertainment similar to the college half time shows they see on TV.
Both the football team and the band are in the entertainment business.

Prospective high school band directors are being taught (among other things) how to field a band that will appeal to football fans and provide band members (and their parents) with enough esprit de corps to remain in the organization.

If the high school directors are successful at doing this , then the pedagogy being imparted is not shoddy. (It's all in how you define the goal of the high school music educator.)

If you define the goal of the music educator as one of helping all interested students develop their musical and technical abilities to the fullest - then yeah - it's pretty [insert bad word] shoddy.

Disclosure: I'm from a high school and college experience so distant that we prepared totally different music and routines for each show. A high school so small that the director needed every trumpet player he could find which meant drafting 6th graders. (A private teacher was made available .) A college band so small - we had a cellist on bass drum. (Here's to you - Old DePauw).
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose it annoys me that a corp might have policies I don't support but it's their right. Their priority is to the corp not all the prospective applicants. Players can accept the constraint or find another corp or other outlet for their playing.

Schools on the other hand I think should prioritize the individual player's development. Not marching or other competitions and certainly not half-time shows. Schools should serve the student's interests. Students shouldn't have to serve the school's interests, especially not at the student's expense.
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AndyDavids
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's just as ridiculous as telling reed players they all need to be on strength 4 or 5!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok man, most of the folks commenting have no idea what a band director does.

First off we all see marching band as something we have to do but it is not we live for. We teach music. None of us thinks we know everything about all the instruments. If we need help we call on our local private teachers and reinforce whatever they are telling their students. If we are experts we might still do that. We are trying for best pedagogy we can get to happen.

Every single decent band director thinks about music first because making music is what drives a lot if other equally important developmental processes in high school kids. They can get real good and the product we make is musical and shows great achievement.

Nobody is going to recommend a 3c mouthpiece and then argue about when a player comes in and says that their teacher thinks something else will be better for that kid. That just is not going to happen.

And to frame this whole thing as a “failure of public education” is just plain stupid. If there is a moron director out there, and there might be, it’s not more likely that it’s a public school involved. The only blanket statement we can say is that public school are way better than private schools at providing music education. It is because we band director know our craft and are willing to put in massive extra work so somebodies kid gets the most important thing they can get.
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Denny Schreffler
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
Ok man, most of the folks commenting have no idea what a band director does.
...

Every single decent band director thinks about music first because making music is what drives a lot if other equally important developmental processes in high school kids. They can get real good and the product we make is musical and shows great achievement.

Nobody is going to recommend a 3c mouthpiece and then argue about when a player comes in and says that their teacher thinks something else will be better for that kid. That just is not going to happen.

And to frame this whole thing as a “failure of public education” is just plain stupid.


Nobody is going to recommend a 3c mouthpiece and then argue about when a player comes in and says that their teacher thinks something else will be better for that kid. That just is not going to happen.Yes, that's what's happening.

Comment (in this thread) from Pops, who is intimately acquainted with Texas band programs •► "There are a great many HS Band programs that DEMAND all trumpet players play the same exact mouthpiece (some bands all 3C, some bands all 1.5C and some bands all 1C.)

And, private comments to me from another, notable Texas trumpet teacher •► "I think that you are fighting a losing battle.  People have bias.  And that bias is hard-earned over a lifetime of reinforcement.  For that reason, people who think that a 3C is some perfect middle-of--the-road solution for everyone will not be convinced by logical arguments.  There is a local [Texas] band director who required the exact same thing.  Strangely, his dictates were at odds with the long-time trumpet teacher at the school.  Needless to say, the trumpet teacher is no longer there.  The band director told me this story, his voice dripping with contempt over the trumpet teacher daring to question his authority on such matters.  I remained silent throughout his rant."

And, did you digest the pithy comment by Brian Scriver, early in the thread. In addition to Brian, I'm pretty sure that Phyllis Stork and Joe Marcinkiewicz (read his, "The Buzz Zone: The Art of Playing Efficiently and Comfortably"), would support my premise, although I will not pretend to speak for anyone other then myself.

And to frame this whole thing as a “failure of public education” is just plain stupid.The phrase that I used in my topic was, "Failure of Public School Music Educators." If you interpreted that as, "Failure of ALL Public School Music Educators," or, as a general "failure of public education," I'm sorry not to have made my point more clearly to any reader of my original post.

My criticism is aimed at a particular pedagogical ideology that is known to be present in a certain region — not you (or Jaw04), not your schools, not your parts of the country, or not your training and professional experience.

My point, as the OP, is — requiring young students to play the same middle-of-the-road [– I disagree with this assessment of a Bach 3C –] mouthpiece, is a lazy, blanket approach which will work very well for a few kids, acceptably well for many, and might be disastrous for a few.

—Denny
•• Because it seems to make a big difference to a few of you, I've had decent training on the trumpet; had some success with a few students; had some success as a player
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's up with all of the variable font sizes?
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denny Schreffler wrote:
lipshurt wrote:
Ok man, most of the folks commenting have no idea what a band director does.
...

Every single decent band director thinks about music first because making music is what drives a lot if other equally important developmental processes in high school kids. They can get real good and the product we make is musical and shows great achievement.

Nobody is going to recommend a 3c mouthpiece and then argue about when a player comes in and says that their teacher thinks something else will be better for that kid. That just is not going to happen.

And to frame this whole thing as a “failure of public education” is just plain stupid.


Nobody is going to recommend a 3c mouthpiece and then argue about when a player comes in and says that their teacher thinks something else will be better for that kid. That just is not going to happen.Yes, that's what's happening.

Comment (in this thread) from Pops, who is intimately acquainted with Texas band programs •► "There are a great many HS Band programs that DEMAND all trumpet players play the same exact mouthpiece (some bands all 3C, some bands all 1.5C and some bands all 1C.)

And, private comments to me from another, notable Texas trumpet teacher •► "I think that you are fighting a losing battle.  People have bias.  And that bias is hard-earned over a lifetime of reinforcement.  For that reason, people who think that a 3C is some perfect middle-of--the-road solution for everyone will not be convinced by logical arguments.  There is a local [Texas] band director who required the exact same thing.  Strangely, his dictates were at odds with the long-time trumpet teacher at the school.  Needless to say, the trumpet teacher is no longer there.  The band director told me this story, his voice dripping with contempt over the trumpet teacher daring to question his authority on such matters.  I remained silent throughout his rant."

And, did you digest the pithy comment by Brian Scriver, early in the thread. In addition to Brian, I'm pretty sure that Phyllis Stork and Joe Marcinkiewicz (read his, "The Buzz Zone: The Art of Playing Efficiently and Comfortably"), would support my premise, although I will not pretend to speak for anyone other then myself.

And to frame this whole thing as a “failure of public education” is just plain stupid.The phrase that I used in my topic was, "Failure of Public School Music Educators." If you interpreted that as, "Failure of ALL Public School Music Educators," or, as a general "failure of public education," I'm sorry not to have made my point more clearly to any reader of my original post.

My criticism is aimed at a particular pedagogical ideology that is known to be present in a certain region — not you (or Jaw04), not your schools, not your parts of the country, or not your training and professional experience.

My point, as the OP, is — requiring young students to play the same middle-of-the-road [– I disagree with this assessment of a Bach 3C –] mouthpiece, is a lazy, blanket approach which will work very well for a few kids, acceptably well for many, and might be disastrous for a few.

—Denny
•• Because it seems to make a big difference to a few of you, I've had decent training on the trumpet; had some success with a few students; had some success as a player
It's a good topic, I respectfully disagree with you on it. I do get overly defensive about people crapping on public school music educators, because it is really easy to look at all the things they do wrong from the outside looking in. I used to be a teaching artist that worked with various band and music programs and didn't properly appreciate what the classroom teachers were doing until I was on the other side.
Sizing up the section from middle school to high school is a good idea in my opinion. If the educator is completely unreasonable about it if a kid sounds really good on a smaller piece, I would disagree with that.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this rooted in the belief that as a student gets older they should “graduate” to a larger diameter? Why not “graduate” to a slightly smaller diameter?

Why a 3C? It’s much shallower than a 7C. Are you wanting a brighter tone from your students? Why not a 5C or a 2C?

I’m just curious about all this. I’ve never heard of a teacher “sizing up” an entire trumpet section, and I’m not getting the logic behind it. BTW, I can tell you that I sound much worse on a 3C. I don’t get along with that rim at all. So if I were one of your students you would not have had a 100% success rate.
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trumpet2012fhl
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

loweredsixth wrote:

Why a 3C? It’s much shallower than a 7C. Are you wanting a brighter tone from your students? Why not a 5C or a 2C?


I can get behind this. In high school, one of the pieces I tried that I liked after moving to a 5C from a 7C, was a 3B. It didn't work right away, but that is the piece I played going into college.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

loweredsixth wrote:
Is this rooted in the belief that as a student gets older they should “graduate” to a larger diameter? Why not “graduate” to a slightly smaller diameter?

Why a 3C? It’s much shallower than a 7C. Are you wanting a brighter tone from your students? Why not a 5C or a 2C?

I’m just curious about all this. I’ve never heard of a teacher “sizing up” an entire trumpet section, and I’m not getting the logic behind it. BTW, I can tell you that I sound much worse on a 3C. I don’t get along with that rim at all. So if I were one of your students you would not have had a 100% success rate.
Because 3C is middle of the road in width and depth. It is not too shallow nor deep. It works for more players in more styles of music than any other rim and cup combo. High school players should probably not be on specialized equipment, they probably play in marching band, concert band and/or jazz band and they dont have the expertise, time, or money to be trying out a bunch of mouthpieces or switching for different situations.

If they go on to study trumpet in college and really develop as players on the 3C, players that end up gravitating towards lead trumpet can go more shallow and/or narrow, the orchestral ppl can go wider and/or deeper, the jazz players can play whatever they want, etc.
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