To Frankenhorn or not to Frankenhorn

[Brassnose]

So, besides the horns in my signature I own two more: a yellow pTrumpet (travel horn for vacation and business trips) and a 1980 Blessing student trumpet, my first horn. The Blessing is still fully operational and I use it very rarely, but really have no need for it because I have to very good Bb trumpets.

As I don’t like having stuff w/o using it (but am attached to the Blessing because of the long time we have spent together ) I have been pondering a revamping of the Blessing into something of an experimental Frankenhorn. I don’t need it but thinking about it is fun and maybe some day it will be done.

Here’s the idea: everything works just fine but the leadpipe needs to be replaced due to severe red rot. So: replace the leadpipe with something a little more open. Add a fourth valve to make it a Bb/F or even a Bb/Eb trumpet. Make it a tunable bell setup. Add a large bell to really be able to play those low notes. Then it goes on: heavy sheet bracing? Lightweight? Twin tube leadpipe? Dizzy bell? I have absolutely no use for such a horn other than experimenting but it could be fun.

Suggestions or ideas? Comments and insights?
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2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

I have a carolbrass that I bought 2nd hand before I realized what red rot is, and both the bell and leadpipe have issues (along with a tuning slide, but I have the alternate one). I'm thinking of swapping the bell and leadpipe if I get the chance and had looked at some of the bells people sell (sterling silver, bronze, etc.). It's hard to make a frankenhorn cost effective if you don't have the skills yourself. I do have a friend who works with a custom builder, so I could also see asking him to work up a leadpipe/bell combo to put on the horn.

[Brassnose]

Yeah, cost is of course an issue, hence the thought of a modular setup: whenever I find something where I see fit, it could just be added. Doing something like this myself would be a challenge - so I’d definitely need professional help, especially for the valve idea.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[Bethmike]

I have the same urge. It is enjoyable to experiment. (And deep down we all know that I, and I alone, can fix the all the issues all other trumpet makers before me could not.)
_________________
Bach190ML43
Kanstul 1001
Bach NY7
Yamaha 631 Flugel

[huntman10]

That's a lot to pour into what is essentially a high mileage Blessing Scholastic valveset. My friends who do mods like that prefer a better valveset to lavish their time on. Have you thought of the ever present lamp conversion. Just sayin'!
_________________
huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[Brassnose]

I know. As I said, at the moment nothing will happen, it’s just food for thought. Thing is, the valves on mine are actually alright. To be honest I find trumpet lamps pretty ugly and would never buy, much less make one.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[lipshurt]

always Frankenhorn!

i ve done at least 100 frankenhorns, and many of them served me very well and continue to, for instance:

my piccolo is a yamaha 445 cornet valve body, a benge bell, and new york bach c trumpet leadpipe, and some various connector knuckles, and curved tubing cut from parts horns, the A pipe is a conn 28a leadpipe. It plays great, and sounds great. The benge picc bell is good sounding bell, but the benge picc is problematic.

My Eb is a ML bach 37 body, getezen severinsen bell (i tried every bell i had, which is about 30 and the severinsen was WAY better. So that means the severinsen bell is def not a 37 clone) and also has some curved tubing culled from various cornet parts horns. It play great too, but like i said this one took a lot of trial and error to get the leadpipe and bell combination right. The leadpipe is a full length bach C pipe, not bent. I used this a lot playing recitals and solos and brass quintet, Verdi requiem etc.

I have made, used and sold many C trumpets that were combinations, or cut-downs, or convertibles. Those are still being used by the way

right now i am playing a selmer K modified with a selmer b700 463 valve body, and that is a really nice combination. 24x pipe

The most important6 thing if you are going to use it, is to get a good valve block. That can not be stressed enough. valves have to be tight and great to make a good horn. If you just want to learn how to solder that is great too, go for it. Dont pay anyone to do any of the work if your valve block is not not first rate. You can do all of it anyway. Get yourself a small lathe cuz you will need to make custom ferules to connect parts of dif diameters. Also get some old cornets as parts horns. They are cheaper and have more curved tubes which come in handy. Get horns with different bore sizes.
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Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[RETrumpet]

My main horns are all frankenhorns to some degree.

That said, I might caution you against the fourth valve, as the weight will really change things. Also the cost...

I recently ordered a four-valve block from CarolBrass and will simply match my existing tuning bells to that block so that I can mix and match whenever I want. The new block from Carol was a good deal less than the quote I received to add a fourth valve, and I keep my options open. I am using a spare leadpipe that I have, so that is keeping my cost down as well. If I went with a new pipe, the cost would be about the same all in, but with the new block, I keep my options open.
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Bb: FrankenBach, '72 Committee, Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe, Bach 226 with YTR-9445(2) pipe
D/Eb: Bach 239 with YTR-9636 pipe
Picc: Stomvi Master, Couesnon Monopole
Cornet: Schilke A2C, '23 Buescher
Flugel: Scodwell Prototype

[deleted_user_687c31b]

Sounds like your biggest 'issue' is that you'd like for your old horn to 'have a purpose'. In that case, a 4th valve would probably the first change to try. Most other changes will turn your unused trumpet into a different unused trumpet, but being able to play notes that the other can't...

If you want a cheaper/lighter option, you could consider replacing the tuning slide wih a longer one instead...that way, if you really don't like it, you can go back to the way it was.

And if you want to go crazy...how about instead of a 4th valve, a trombone-like (tuning)slide? You'd both get the extra range, and you'd be able to play glissando's as well.

[Brassnose]

Hey, I like what’s coming in here! Hibidogrulez, you said it right - it’s mostly my dislike of having an unused horn and hence all the ideas. I have also been thinking about a slide option a la firebird.

https://www.instrumenta-nuernberg.de/news/slidete-was-ist-das/

For the fourth valve I have been thinking about a rotary setup, there are a few cool concepts out there:

https://www.lotustrumpets.com/rapa4valve

https://www.jaegerbrass.com/jaeger-ascending-c.html

https://www.secondbrass.com/?id=5&product=2637

They are different valves but as a way of mounting I saw there are options available.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[yourbrass]

The easiest thing you can try is a new leadpipe.

You'll need a receiver, pipe, and a Blessing (or equivalent) outer tuning slide.

Once you have that assembled, (or even taped together) you can strap it on the horn w/some electrical tape.

If that doesn't improve the way it plays, you can either try another pipe, or give the idea up. Replacing the pipe on that horn might be, well, a blessing.
Best,
-Lionel
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/

[royjohn]

I agree with others who caution you not to spend money on a valve block that isn't in very good shape. That said, some student horns have good valve blocks...but I know nothing about Blessings. I was going to suggest you put on a Pilczuk leadpipe or at least try one, as that is likely to open up the horn and improve the intonation a good bit. You could get several to try from Rich Ita and send them all back if you don't like one...or keep the one you like.

Of course, part of the fun might be to troll around (ebay?) for a leadpipe to try.

Once you are done with a leadpipe, another bell...prolly tunable bell...would be fun to try. I know some folks use Ambassador bells for this, but again, you might want to see what you could find that might work. I have a shepherd's crook cornet bell off an old Holton that is just waiting for the right project...

I have no knowledge of how you would add a 4th valve or whether that would work, but it might be fun to try. Once you get done with doing this stuff, you will know a heck of a lot about building horns and you might keep on going!
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[deleted_user_687c31b]

[giakara]

[Brassnose]

@hibidogrulez, yes, I find that also cool - lucky coincidence is I work with someone who is reasonably close to the shop that built the horn. So once I can really travel again (can you believe that I cannot even get an appointment for a vaccination right now … ?), I’ll check it out during one of my next business trips - maybe put the trip on a Friday

@giakara, yes, saving money is an option However, I will not buy another Bb trumpet, I have two good ones (signature) that serve me very well. If there is a new (or used) additional horn that I’ll be shopping for it will be a bass trumpet. It really is not about getting an additional horn, it’s more about me not liking having a horn sitting around w/o purpose.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[oliver king]

+Frankenhorn!!! I have quite a few that came from a basement shop in the heart of Oakland. They're all great players put together by a really talented artisan or two. I think some have turned out better than others. The only downsides I see to Frankenhorns is they do not hold much resale value so ... they're your's pretty much forever. They can be so unique they may not blend well in a section.
- Olds Super with RMC Martin bell
- Getzen valves with interchangeable leadpipes and bells
- Olds Special with Kanstul #7 copper bell
- gen1 and gen2 badass
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LB Bel Canto #59
Holton B47
Frankenhorn projects 1-5
Adams F1
Olds Super Tenor Trombone
Alesis QS8
B2MS3, B2GS3,

[Brassnose]

Ok, I haven’t really thought about resale. Since the horn is my first horn I am attached to it and am not considering a sale. The total value of the horn is probably 50 - 70 bucks so there is no point in a sale anyway. And I may still have 20 - 30 years to go, so even considering the cost of having it done professionally it would not be so bad over that timespan. I like your list!
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[Brassnose]

Ok, here we go again. As things are getting a little easier at the moment and we can go back to rehearsals, I may have a chance to play with a really loud Balkan style brass band that plays all sorts of music, mostly commercial stuff and hits-of-the-day. Thing is, they play outdoors w/o amplifiers etc., marching-style, and very low tech.

So: I have been pondering to use the Blessing at hand to convert it to an efficient, loud, and focused instrument. Ideas include a sterling or nickel silver leadpipe, maybe another tuning slide, exchangeable bell, maybe a nickel silver bell (could get one for a reasonable price), sheet bracing, plus the smaller things like a heavy cap on the third valve.

(Still pondering that fourth valve or slide addition, would be fun in this context as well).

Further suggestions? Ideas?
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[deleted_user_687c31b]

I have absolutely no experience with Balkan Brass bands so the next comment may be as stupid as it gets but...

...what about a quarter-tone valve?

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

I have several carols and one with the sterling leadpipe. I bet they sell those at a reasonable price. I also have one with the Baro leadpipe, I think in nickel, which is fun. Good luck!