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DJtpt31 Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2015 Posts: 308 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:48 pm Post subject: Amazon UltraSonic Cleaner |
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Anyone purchased an ultrasonic cleaner from Amazon and have done your own ultrasonic cleaning on your trumpet or trumpet parts? _________________ "You need F-15's..." Joe Biden |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6159
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Which one in particular? |
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DJtpt31 Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2015 Posts: 308 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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etc-etc wrote: | Which one in particular? |
I don't have a particular brand in mind, I'm just curious if anyone has bought one and what their experience with it has been. _________________ "You need F-15's..." Joe Biden |
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rjimison Regular Member
Joined: 02 Nov 2004 Posts: 65 Location: Metro Detroit
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:55 am Post subject: ultrasonic cleaner |
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I have an ultrasonic cleaner I got from Harbor Freight about 5 years ago. Fairly small, it will not hold a horn body. It is great for valves, slides & mouthpieces. I would not advise using one on a lacquer horn, or one with a chip in the plating as it will begin to strip the finish. Also be careful of some of the "special ultrasonic cleaning solutions" as they are very caustic. I use only a very small amount of simple green in hot water to cut valve oil/slide grease and it works quite well.
Ron |
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Aspeyrer Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2019 Posts: 106
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:03 am Post subject: |
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While I don’t have experience with Amazon ultrasonics, I do with the likely comparable harbor freight ultrasonics, specifically, 2.5 L models. I think it also sells on Amazon under a different brand name.
I have used and seen these used in at least four pro trumpet/brass repair shops (in addition to 90+ gallon models).
They would use these only on small component; finger buttons, valve stems, water key assemblies... they also work well for mouthpieces.
They are cheap, easy to use, and last a decent amount of time for the price. I’m not saying they are good and they are definitely not a replacement for the five-figure industry standards. And an ultrasonic cleaning is typically one of the several steps involved in a cleaning.
Last edited by Aspeyrer on Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 673 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:04 am Post subject: |
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Getting an ultrasonic cleaner big enough to handle an entire trumpet will run in the multi thousand dollar range.
I have a 6 inch ultrasonic cleaner I got at Harbor Freight Freight about 10 years ago for about $60. I use it to clean slides and pistons (remove finger buttons, felts, and sticks valve guides). It has a heated cycle option.
I use a little Dawn dish soap and water. Occasionally I put in a bit of Simple Green if there is a lot of gunk to clean. Anyway, it helps get the slides and piston inner passages shiny clean. Be aware that it will strip old cellulose lacquer (Simple Green will turn the celluloselacquer into a white wax like goo, if left overnight), and if you leave parts of your 1940's Bach F trumpet overnight, all the nickel turns black🤨, but rubbing with an old t shirt will shine it up nicely.🙂 _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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Coldeye Regular Member
Joined: 10 Nov 2017 Posts: 15 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Amazon UltraSonic Cleaner |
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DJtpt31 wrote: | Anyone purchased an ultrasonic cleaner from Amazon and have done your own ultrasonic cleaning on your trumpet or trumpet parts? |
I use it from glasses, fishing reel parts, bike parts etc.
Get one with mechanical controls (dials instead of buttons). My amazon prime day deal I got about 3 years ago died within the first year because of the buttons. I now have two, one chinese with dials (3L) and still goes strong and a Crest I lucked out on eBay (.75Gal). BTW as is stated previously, the big ones (enough to dunk a trumpet) are expensive. The 3L is good only for valves and slides. Also a tip, you do not have to fill the whole tank with solution. You can just pour plain water and put the parts in a beaker/ziplock with solution. Makes clean up very easy. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Amazon UltraSonic Cleaner |
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Coldeye wrote: | DJtpt31 wrote: | Anyone purchased an ultrasonic cleaner from Amazon and have done your own ultrasonic cleaning on your trumpet or trumpet parts? |
I use it from glasses, fishing reel parts, bike parts etc.
Get one with mechanical controls (dials instead of buttons). My amazon prime day deal I got about 3 years ago died within the first year because of the buttons. I now have two, one chinese with dials (3L) and still goes strong and a Crest I lucked out on eBay (.75Gal). BTW as is stated previously, the big ones (enough to dunk a trumpet) are expensive. The 3L is good only for valves and slides. Also a tip, you do not have to fill the whole tank with solution. You can just pour plain water and put the parts in a beaker/ziplock with solution. Makes clean up very easy. |
Huh. Makes sense, but I doubt I would have thought of it. Nice tip to share. |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1272
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:48 am Post subject: |
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huntman10 wrote: | Getting an ultrasonic cleaner big enough to handle an entire trumpet will run in the multi thousand dollar range.... |
I got one from Amazon a few years ago made by Hornady designed for shotgun barrels. It could accommodate any of my trumpets, plus all of a flugel except for a little of the bell rim. It cost ~$600 in Dec. 2014. Now I see it listed at ~$690. However, I sold it 18 mos. ago after it caused silver to peal from inside the bells on two horns! Ouch!
Hornady sonic cleaner
Here's one for $270 that will fit most any trumpet or flugel...
$270 model
(Sorry, I don't know how to create hyperlinks. If someone could be so kind as to send a link that shows how to do that on a Mac in Safari, that would be great! My web searching skills on the topic is not helping matters.)
EDIT: Thank you, LittleRusty, for sending the instructions to form short url links!
I never used the heat function and only used a little Dawn in the water. Plus, I only left horns in for 2 minutes or less. One of the two horns was a vintage E&S (and I now know it is a no-no to treat vintage horns), and the other was an Eclipse that was less than two years in age. Leigh McKinney afterwards told me that they looked into sonic cleaners when that market was first creeping over into the musical instrument world years ago, and their research said to avoid them, that they affect solder joints on micro levels. However, we all know brass techs who use them all the time, and my experience could be labeled flukes.
EDIT: E&S = Evette & Schaefer
Last edited by dstpt on Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jenny Lee Regular Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2021 Posts: 43
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:41 am Post subject: |
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On the broader subject of cleaning pistons, I've read various advice on the best methods. According to this video from Jason Harrelson:
Quote: | Why do some really good valve sets have problems in the first couple weeks? The reason is the tolerance on some valves is so tight, that bits of lint can get stuck on the piston when cleaning the trumpet, and there's not enough space between piston and casing to accommodate that lint. In fact, if you can wipe down your pistons with a cloth and still smoothly slide the valves back into place and place, that's a sign your valves were made with a really loose tolerance. |
Can anyone confirm based on their own experience? |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6159
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:17 am Post subject: |
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Jenny Lee wrote: | On the broader subject of cleaning pistons, I've read various advice on the best methods. According to this video from Jason Harrelson:
Quote: | Why do some really good valve sets have problems in the first couple weeks? The reason is the tolerance on some valves is so tight, that bits of lint can get stuck on the piston when cleaning the trumpet, and there's not enough space between piston and casing to accommodate that lint. In fact, if you can wipe down your pistons with a cloth and still smoothly slide the valves back into place and place, that's a sign your valves were made with a really loose tolerance. |
Can anyone confirm based on their own experience? |
The smoothness of valve motion is best after wiping valves off with a wetted chamois cloth, and re-oiling. If wiping material sheds lint, valves may stick. |
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DJtpt31 Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Dec 2015 Posts: 308 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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dstpt wrote: |
However, I sold it 18 mos. ago after it caused silver to peal from inside the bells on two horns! Ouch!
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Was this from using dawn soap and water?
dstpt wrote: |
Here's one for $270 that will fit most any trumpet or flugel...
$270 model
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hmm... I may have to get me one of these. _________________ "You need F-15's..." Joe Biden |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1272
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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DJtpt31 wrote: | dstpt wrote: |
However, I sold it 18 mos. ago after it caused silver to peal from inside the bells on two horns! Ouch!
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Was this from using dawn soap and water?
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No, it was from the sonic cleaning action, which we find with a simple google search...
"Ultrasonic cleaning works through high-frequency sound waves transmitted through liquid to scrub clean the surface of immersed parts. The high-frequency sound waves, typically 40 kHz, agitate the liquid solution of water or solvent, and cause the cavitation of solution molecules."
Some say it was faulty plating, but that's a little hard for me to believe on a high-end horn, like an Eclipse that was under two years of age. I guess that's always a possibility. All I know is, when I asked Leigh McKinney about it, he said that they have always avoided these machines. They were not designed to treat expensive musical instruments, although much of the time, maybe most of the time, no issues are visible. Over time (that is, multiple treatments of the same horn), the ultrasonic waves may "loosen" plating or solder joints. As I said above, many brass techs use them, but I've also talked to U.S. brass techs who refuse to use them. One bought a $20K unit (to treat horns as large as tubas) years ago, but soon realized that it can easily peal lacquer, even newly-lacquered horns, so he's had it sitting in his garage for a very long time! So there are those who continue to use them, and those who will not use them. I guess cleaning tons of school horns is one thing, but when it comes to anything high-end, I suppose we should be very cautious. |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8331 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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dstpt wrote: | No, it was from the sonic cleaning action, which we find with a simple google search...
"Ultrasonic cleaning works through high-frequency sound waves transmitted through liquid to scrub clean the surface of immersed parts. The high-frequency sound waves, typically 40 kHz, agitate the liquid solution of water or solvent, and cause the cavitation of solution molecules."
Some say it was faulty plating, but that's a little hard for me to believe on a high-end horn, like an Eclipse that was under two years of age. I guess that's always a possibility. All I know is, when I asked Leigh McKinney about it, he said that they have always avoided these machines. They were not designed to treat expensive musical instruments, although much of the time, maybe most of the time, no issues are visible. Over time (that is, multiple treatments of the same horn), the ultrasonic waves may "loosen" plating or solder joints. As I said above, many brass techs use them, but I've also talked to U.S. brass techs who refuse to use them. One bought a $20K unit (to treat horns as large as tubas) years ago, but soon realized that it can easily peal lacquer, even newly-lacquered horns, so he's had it sitting in his garage for a very long time! So there are those who continue to use them, and those who will not use them. I guess cleaning tons of school horns is one thing, but when it comes to anything high-end, I suppose we should be very cautious. |
I'm not a brass tech but I sometimes cleaned returned student horns in the shop's ultrasonic cleaner during the summer as there was a large backlog of instruments to get through.
These were a variety of Bach, Yamaha, and store branded Accents (made in China). I don't recall any issues with lacquer on these instruments. I also cleaned many of my personal instruments as well, lacquered and plated. Previous to working there, I also took my personal instruments to a different shop and sometimes had them cleaned.
On older instruments - I have .... well.... too many, I sometimes was a little light on the ultrasonic - maybe running it for 1-2 minutes instead of 3. Also, we didn't have it heated - as is a feature on the unit. I believe that all of those factors might make a difference.
Anyway, I didn't experience any noticeable lacquer loss on anything I've run in the ultrasonic. This is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of a hundred or so instruments, maybe more. Maybe there was slight loss on some of the horns with 40-50+ year old lacquer, but that's all. The plated horns had zero issues and newer lacquered ones as well.
I'm not disputing any other people's opinions or experiences, but these are mine. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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plankowner110 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Posts: 3620
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:20 am Post subject: |
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I have done at least 1,000 ultrasonic flushes on brass instruments during the past nine years and there is not a single case where there was any damage to lacquer or plating. Of course, this is a large tank commercial unit big enough to do euphoniums and small tubas besides trumpets, cornets, french horns, and trombones. We don't use the heat option and the cleaning chemical is used at 1/2 quart. No problems ever. The high frequency vibrations do all the work. _________________ C. G. Conn 60B Super Connstellation
Getzen 800S Eterna cornet
Bach 5C mouthpieces - Jens Lindemann is right
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26763 |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1272
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:55 am Post subject: |
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I figured that most brass techs would not have had issues, even after hundreds or thousands of horns treated, but I've known those who have. I would figure that most of the horns treated are junior and senior high school students, no? How often would most of them have their horn treated? How many times during that horn's lifetime will it go through a sonic cleaner?
What I'm wondering is how many times can you treat a trumpet until it shows adverse affects to the plating/lacquer? When I told him that I bought one of these, Charlie Melk advised me to never use the heat function and only treat for two minutes per horn. But how soon after that could I treat it, again? We would think that it wouldn't need treatment for some time. However, what about the player who loves his candy bars and soda during a gig...but he has a sonic cleaner at home? He knows he can just run it through the sonic cleaner, but how often is safe? I mean, we are told to only use it two minutes at a time, but why is that? Is any negative affect of the sonic action only possible during a single given treatment, or is any adverse affect going to be cumulative over the course of multiple treatments? Why is it that two minutes is the number? Why can't we leave it in longer? What happens if we do? How many treatments at two minutes each can a horn tolerate before it starts to bubble and peal plating/lacquer or impact solder joints microscopically? Or would it never get to that point if we only treat a horn two minutes for each treatment, regardless of the number of times treated over its lifetime, or frequency thereof? If that's the case, then the candyman player can just treat it once a week, right? Or does it need to be in an industrial-size tank to be safe? I don't think the industry that introduced ultrasonic cleaners to musical instrument stores would have the answers. They were just selling hardware with a revolutionary technology that worked on greasy machine parts and tools, right? |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8331 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:00 am Post subject: |
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plankowner110 wrote: | I have done at least 1,000 ultrasonic flushes on brass instruments during the past nine years and there is not a single case where there was any damage to lacquer or plating. Of course, this is a large tank commercial unit big enough to do euphoniums and small tubas besides trumpets, cornets, french horns, and trombones. We don't use the heat option and the cleaning chemical is used at 1/2 quart. No problems ever. The high frequency vibrations do all the work. |
How long was the tank typically run per instrument? Just curious.
dstpt wrote: | What I'm wondering is how many times can you treat a trumpet until it shows adverse affects to the plating/lacquer? When I told him that I bought one of these, Charlie Melk advised me to never use the heat function and only treat for two minutes per horn. But how soon after that could I treat it, again? We would think that it wouldn't need treatment for some time.
...
How many treatments at two minutes each can a horn tolerate before it starts to bubble and peal plating/lacquer or impact solder joints microscopically? |
You're assuming that there is a cumulative effect. I'm not sure one can make that assumption. It's possible, but again, I don't think you can make that assumption.
Or if there is an cumulative effect, how much greater is it than setting the horn on a stand, or playing it?
Metal fatigue is a thing..... on airplanes and such. I really wonder if that's really a concern on well made musical instruments.
The machine might vibrate the metal a bit, but the point is that the vibrations jar debris that isn't part of the horn loose. Of course, just playing the instrument also creates vibrations.... _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn
Last edited by Crazy Finn on Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1272
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:03 am Post subject: |
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Crazy Finn wrote: | ... dstpt wrote: | What I'm wondering is how many times can you treat a trumpet until it shows adverse affects to the plating/lacquer? When I told him that I bought one of these, Charlie Melk advised me to never use the heat function and only treat for two minutes per horn. But how soon after that could I treat it, again? We would think that it wouldn't need treatment for some time.
...
How many treatments at two minutes each can a horn tolerate before it starts to bubble and peal plating/lacquer or impact solder joints microscopically? |
You're assuming that there is a cumulative effect. I'm not sure one can make that assumption. It's possible, but again, I don't think you can make that assumption.
Or if there is an accumulative effect, how much greater is it than setting the horn on a stand, or playing it? |
I'm not assuming anything at all, just asking questions. I have had my experiences (mentioned previously in this thread), while others have had theirs. If ultrasonic cleaners would have no ill affect on a brass instrument, then what's wrong with leaving them in the tank for more than two minutes...or over night, for that matter? If there is something wrong in that, then what is it? One can refer to questions in my previous post.
Last edited by dstpt on Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2533 Location: Cope, IN
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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I've got to tell you all that this post is one of the main reasons why I am on TH. An interesting, friendly discussion with lots of great information.
Thanks to all the posters!
AL _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8331 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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dstpt wrote: | I'm not assuming anything at all, just asking questions. I have had my experiences (mentioned previously in this thread), while others have had theirs. If ultrasonic cleaners would have no ill affect on a brass instrument, then what's wrong with leaving them in the tank for more than two minutes...or over night, for that matter. If there is something wrong in that, then what is it? One can refer to questions in my previous post. |
Fair enough. Those are good questions.
I've only had positive experiences with ultrasonic cleaning. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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