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Endurance problems



 
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StevenE
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Joined: 28 Aug 2021
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 6:45 pm    Post subject: Endurance problems Reply with quote

I am working to play The Trumpet Shall Sound from The Messiah all the way through. I have been gradually able to get a little further along in the piece up till now before my lips gave out and I could not produce a sound.

But for some reason, starting today I have been having severe problems. I can only get about a third of the way through before no sound comes out - my lips simply will not vibrate.

Any thoughts on what might possibly be happening?
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huntman10
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We will need a little context. Are you playing the horn you have played a long time, or breaking in a pic or D that is new to you. Have you got experience with this style of playing?

Are you playing along with a CD or just counting and playing.

Have you worked over each little piece of the music first, before you put it all together, or are you trying to "eat it all at one sitting"? I find it is easer to get acquainted with each little part of the whole, so that I am more relaxed when trying to pull it all together.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 8:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Endurance problems Reply with quote

StevenE wrote:
I am working to play The Trumpet Shall Sound from The Messiah all the way through. I have been gradually able to get a little further along in the piece up till now before my lips gave out and I could not produce a sound.

But for some reason, starting today I have been having severe problems. I can only get about a third of the way through before no sound comes out - my lips simply will not vibrate.

Any thoughts on what might possibly be happening?


Each time, do you work on it until your chops give out? Or is this just what happened today?
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are playing each time until your lips give out and you cannot produce a sound (I.e., to exhaustion), then you are probably your chops (way) too hard. Take a day or two off to help them recover. When you resume practicing, make sure you stop before you get to the point of exhaustion. Try breaking up your practice into shorter sessions and add rest breaks to your sessions. Good luck.
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StevenE
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer several questions posed:

I am playing a Bb/A piccolo trumpet tuned to A which I have had for quite awhile.

I am playing along with the Robert Shaw RCA Victor recording of The Messiah.

I play all the way through it, or as far as I can until I can no longer produce a sound. So far I have been able to get a little farther through it with each session (I have been playing it once a day, then resting and letting the "burn" dissipate.)

I am playing it from memory.
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mhenrikse
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Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Endurance problems Reply with quote

StevenE wrote:
I am working to play The Trumpet Shall Sound from The Messiah all the way through. I have been gradually able to get a little further along in the piece up till now before my lips gave out and I could not produce a sound.

But for some reason, starting today I have been having severe problems. I can only get about a third of the way through before no sound comes out - my lips simply will not vibrate.

Any thoughts on what might possibly be happening?


It definitely sounds like overplay. You might even need 3 days away from the horn to recover as it sounds pretty bad.

When you return to the trumpet, I suggest that you look at the "6 notes" in the Caruso book to start your day. Penzarella introduced it to me and it helped a lot in developing resilient chops. For example, I've performed the Trumpet Shall Sound with Da Capo; its a blow but certainly within your grasp. The other approach is to do the Stamp warm up. If you do the mouthpiece with piano matching the pitch, you will stop bending the upper middle register notes sharp, which is the usual reason for faltering in the upper register. Good luck!
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I play all the way through it, or as far as I can until I can no longer produce a sound. So far I have been able to get a little farther through it with each session


There are some who advocate practicing to the point of fatigue, but I have never heard anyone advocate practicing to the point where you literally cannot produce a sound -- complete exhaustion -- and certainly not doing so day after day. The muscles of your face need time to recover and get stronger. Based on the little information available, it seems that you have not been giving yourself time to recover, and your chops are now letting you know that.

As previously suggested, take a day or two off and then resume with a more sensible approach to practice -- which includes not playing to the point of exhaustion. You'll see better results. Good luck!
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After playing trumpet since 1963, I'm convinced the bulk of "endurance problems" are breath-related. Somewhere around age 64 I developed a problem that threatened to end my own performance career- After about 15 minutes of hard playing, sometimes less, I would be unable to play above the staff. Things just locked up. I would barely be able to make it through an entire Charlier etude; Smith's were out of the question.

I nursed it along for quite a while, sought some professional help but made no progress. It finally dawned on me that "chops" were not the problem, breath was. After playing "hard" a bit, I would end up with some severe tightness in my chest, located, near as I can describe, as behind my sternum. Felt like I was blowing the bell off of my trumpet but in reality, no wind moving at all. I would be stuck in the position one finds themselves in a split second before one coughs, either intinctively or through conscious action. Valsalva maneuver. To try to counteract the lack of breath, I'd start jamming the mouthpiece into my chops and that could only go on for so long, eventually only a couple of minutes.

All of my exhaling effort from that point would be located and directed from below that place, but the maneuver would clamp down on the ability of the breath to move out of the lungs, probably what many refer to as a "closed throat". Collapsed chest and little air being taken into the actual upper portions of the lungs was also evident to me once I got the entire thing figured out. I was running about 5 miles every day but it didn't seem to help my breathing at all.

Somewhere along the line, this action must've helped me eek out a high pitch or two during practice or in a performance but it was now hampering my entire ability to play above the staff at all. Having formed this habit, likely over time, it was extremely difficult to break.

If this in any way fits your issues, I'd suggest you try to use the syllable "HOOOOOO" as you are playing, taking note of the feeling of the wind passing out of your body. I suggest long tones first, the more simple the activity, the better, at least for me. Done properly, I feel a focus, or some sort of a light pressure sensation in the sinus are near my nose where it adjoins the area above my upper lip. I found if I could maintain that feeling while playing, the wind would keep moving and I'd not lock up. This was not easy...

In my pursuit of changing the habit, I found the more extreme Colin Lip Flex exercises especially valuable because I could concentrate on the sound, and ease of movement between registers, without having to be concerned about fingering or rhythmic technique. I also tried to set up with less pressure in the first place, and with an embouchure set that produces a comfortable, easy F (concert pitch) above the staff, using this set all the way into the pedal register. (Both techs come from Pops, to give gredit where credit is due.) After the blowing became more habitual, 98% of my concentration has been directed towards the sound- the place it always was prior to my ill-gotten bad habit.

Sorry for the long post. Hope my experience helps others. I have other observations but this has gone on long enough for now. I was ready to hang it up a year ago with covid crap being a good excuse, now I'm back to being able to play in a reliable fashion. Best of luck and skill to everyone. Drop a PM if this helps/helped.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you practice until you fail then you get really good at failing. You can't just throw yourself at these things with the notion that eventually you will get stronger. There may be other human endeavors where that works but trumpet isn't one of them.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:42 am    Post subject: Re: Endurance problems Reply with quote

StevenE wrote:
I am working to play The Trumpet Shall Sound from The Messiah all the way through. I have been gradually able to get a little further along in the piece up till now before my lips gave out and I could not produce a sound.

But for some reason, starting today I have been having severe problems. I can only get about a third of the way through before no sound comes out - my lips simply will not vibrate.

Any thoughts on what might possibly be happening?


I agree with all the other posters. Overuse - simply meaning that too much lactid acid has accumulated. As they say "not exactly rocket science".
The causes of this may vary - as the posters have indicated. Craig S probably hits the nail - lack of air support forces you to press harder.
But - could be that the way you play is less than adequate.
A seemingly good embouchure breaking down? If you have been playing for a long time you should have developed some keen sense of the ongoing state of your chops - then knowing when to stop etc. etc.
So - I guess you should take s step back, reflect on you habits and the way you do them. Now you seem surprised!
Let´s do it to our lips before they do it to us......
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