High A on British Brass Band style short model cornets

Andy Cooper · Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:51 pm Post subject:

Over the years I've received a lot of ribbing from my fellow players for having a couple of inches of solder wire wrapped around the throat area of some of my mouthpieces. For me, it makes certain notes above the staff lock in better. Yeah - I know - it's all in my head. On the other hand, Terry Warburton is selling "Speak Easys" for $70.

Then I have a C trumpet with a silver dime in third valve bottom cap. Go ahead - laugh.

It cost nothing to experiment with some (non-lead) solder wire and maybe a couple of washers. Small amounts of weight in different areas can effect how an instrument feels on certain notes.
Reeves - cylinder reinforcer,, receiver ring
Wick- tone collar
Curry - harmonic balancers

Louise Finch · Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:27 pm Post subject:

Hi RichardIII

No, admittedly because I didn’t clarify further, but you don’t have this right. I’ve played the same rim and cup for the last 16 years, but not the exact same mouthpiece. My current mouthpiece is a custom Kanstul one. The mouthpiece I used on my Bach 184ML is still in its case.

I also want to clarify that this is a minor issue raised for the sake of hopefully having an interesting discussion with possibly a solution to a known issue.

I played multiple high As during my brass band tonight. Not one had a sound that differed from the rest of the notes I played, not one was missed, split, mispitched or noticeably out of tune.

I’ve been happy with my mouthpiece on the Xeno since Jan 2013 or 2014. I have no plans to change it. Your colleague changed to a Wick 3B because a Bach cornet mouthpieces generally do not work well on British Brass Band cornets other than the Bach 184, at least in my experience and in the cornets I’ve tried.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

Subtropical and Subpar · Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:52 pm Post subject:

royjohn · Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:55 pm Post subject:

I think Andy Cooper has something going...this is a matter of the standing waves and nodes within the horn. I recently watched a video of the late Byron Autrey talking about standing waves in the leadpipe. He was dragging a small magnet through the leadpipe with a piece of steel on the outside of the horn and investigating where the nodes were. Nodes can be shifted by things like the trigger, a brace, or dimensions of the tubing, etc. If the Eclipse doesn't have this high A problem, it's probably due to the strange wrap it has.

I'm surprised that the makers haven't fixed this issue, but I think you could take some tape and wire and add weight in various places and see what happens. Ditto use some coins in the valves, O rings on the valves, etc. I think there would be something that would influence this high A...whether it would throw something else off instead, IDK.

There's a story about the Besson (I think) euphoniums having a flat note...evidently it was found that making a small ding on one of the elbows coming out of one of the valves fixed this out of tune note (by shifting the node). I don't remember the exact details of this. If you were very brave, you could drag a magnet thru the horn and when you found the right node, you could try making a small dent in the horn, I suppose.

I have some older Besson and Yamaha SC cornets here, maybe I should experiment around a little. Haven't played any of them enough to know if they have a bad high A...
_________________
royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

Louise Finch · Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:57 am Post subject:

Louise Finch · Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:14 am Post subject:

Louise Finch · Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:30 am Post subject:

Andy Cooper · Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:50 pm Post subject:

Subtropical and Subpar · Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:00 pm Post subject:

Louise Finch · Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:00 am Post subject:

Louise Finch · Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:01 am Post subject:

GordonH · Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:22 am Post subject:

I have recently changed to a Geneva Heritage cornet. The A is much closer to being in tune. For comfort I need to use about 5mm of first valve trigger if its an entry onto the A. The open intervals are also really closely in tune.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

Louise Finch · Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:30 am Post subject:

GordonH · Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:13 am Post subject:

Well, it's a long story. I wanted something that was easier to blow and easier to make my target sound on. So when the project to design the cornet started I put the cash into Bitcoin hoping I might make a couple of hundred towards the cost. I ended up with £9000 so I effectively got the cornet for nothing, put the £3000 back in the bank and have £3000 for something else.

Main reason for changing is sound. The leadpipe on it is constructed so there is no gap at all and no smoothed out step. The receiver is machined to fit the leadpipe perfectly. This means that insertion length of mouthpiece makes no difference, which is a problem with some other cornets. The leadpipe flares out very quickly for the first 6cm then gradually to the end. This is different to most cornets that have a gradual taper. The bore size is the same as all the Geneva cornets. The valves are ultra tight. You need to use special light oil in them. I put in utrapure and they jammed.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

Louise Finch · Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:55 am Post subject:

GordonH · Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:17 am Post subject:

My target sound is what I would describe as "compact". That traditional cornet sound was the result of the wrap and the interchangeable A and Bb shanks. The Heritage gets very close to this. The Maestro did too but it had quite an uneven response and tuning issues like the A and G#. The Prestige has a wider tone pallet so it could do it but I was finding it hard work.

When I look down the receiver with a torch I can see a ring where the leadpipe and receiver butt up against each other. The leadpipe fits into the receiver so when you run a toothpick down the inside of the receiver you don't feel the transition at all. Other cornets have the ridge smoothed out, but this is a totally flat surface.

The bracing is identical to a Sovereign.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM