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Notice: Audition complaints


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LaTrompeta
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too small of an industry, too many politics. You get on the wrong side of the wrong person and your career is over.

Glad I got out of it after college. I would have hated my life, even if I did win a job (granted, I wasn't the best player so who knows).
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Antique thread...

Of course, there's always the AFM. This is one of the reasons we/they exist. Complain around here? What good could it possibly do other than to try to make you feel better somehow???
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andybharms wrote:
...Not to mention equity, diversity, and inclusion.
Not in any way trying to be "political" here, but why would these be issues to complain about in an audition??? I'd assume the auditors are searching for the best performer in those who are in the pool. If the now-standard "behind the screen" protocols are in place, how can these possibly be considered?

Perhaps you're being sarcastic, in which case I apologize...
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has this been a significant problem?
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andybharms
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig, someone already mentioned it, but there is both statistical and anecdotal evidence that blind auditions improve EDI outcomes (someone complained about the nomenclature… I didn’t make it up, that’s just how people are referring to access issues across the industry).

This isn’t about EDI though, just pointing out that a blind audition is a component of a fair audition, and that fair auditions are statistically more equitable. I was just talking to a well known orchestral trumpeter recently who will remain anonymous, but was open that a section they were acting with really wanted them for the tenure track position, and there were thumbs on the scale when the audition came. Without saying whether that is right or wrong, it *definitely* happens. Other orchestras are very dedicated to the fairest audition possible and will not even auto advance an acting member. Maybe it isn’t nice to question folks’ motivations and judgment, but I think people need to be aware that there may be a headwind... or maybe assume that there is one. I feel generally that it’s not healthy for the industry or the long term health of an ensemble, though.

That’s all I feel I can add to this conversation right now. All the best!
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig Swartz wrote:
andybharms wrote:
...Not to mention equity, diversity, and inclusion.
Not in any way trying to be "political" here, but why would these be issues to complain about in an audition??? I'd assume the auditors are searching for the best performer in those who are in the pool. If the now-standard "behind the screen" protocols are in place, how can these possibly be considered?


Just on the topic of blind auditions, I heard a story about this which may or may not be true, but that I found interesting.

Apparently when they first introduced screened auditions there wasn't initially much change with regards to men vs women getting hired.

After a while, a couple of things started happening... Some auditions started also putting down a carpet, and/or many women started to take their shoes off for their audition. Then the numbers started to change.
Apparently hearing the click of womens' heels was enough to give it away and bias the outcome against them.

Not sure if this is one of those myths or not, but I find the premise all too believable...

Personally I wish more sections of society and even other areas in the arts would embrace blind auditions.
The screened orchestral auditions are about as fair as things are ever likely to get, and should be used as a model much more widely imo
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thsd
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting take from the NYT to end blind auditions:

https://www.amren.com/news/2020/07/to-make-orchestras-more-diverse-end-blind-auditions/
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andybharms
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is absolutely true. All professional auditions these days include a carpet that leads to the stand and chair. There is a now-famous story about a female American trombonist who won blind audition in a German orchestra and there was apparently some real shock when the screen came down. In fact, I don’t know many female brass players older than a certain age who don’t have a pretty compelling story about discrimination or even abuse. I think it’s gotten much, much better in recent years… the younger generation enjoys a lot of protections brought about by union audition procedures. But that is after the collected efforts of so many bittersweet victories, and it is a fragile and precarious arrangement. I know of three appointments in the last several weeks that were not done by audition.. all three are great folks and players, but definitely of a predictable demographic. The argument is of course that it’s not safe nor is there time to do a proper audition, which is true, and who knows if they will even have a season. But that’s still three up elevators. One of the reasons I got into orchestral trumpeting was the meritocracy element, which is rare in the world. I sincerely hope we can quickly get back to that. Not just for diversity and equity, but for reigning in gatekeeping in general.

That NYT article has been widely panned and discredited in professional circles.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thsd wrote:
Interesting take from the NYT to end blind auditions:

https://www.amren.com/news/2020/07/to-make-orchestras-more-diverse-end-blind-auditions/

----------------------------------------------
see full article here - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-auditions-orchestras-race.html

The key point of that opinion piece is at the end -

"Orchestras will need to be transparent about their goals and procedures if they are to move forward with a new approach to auditions — one that takes race and gender into account, along with the full spectrum of a musician’s experience."

And from my reading of the article, the supporting premise is that there are many qualified players available who could 'do the job', so it is not necessary for an employer to find the 'best possible person' (using the employer's view of what that means).

Another consideration is what is necessary to keep the 'big money' benefactors happy.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andybharms wrote:
When screens come down, politics goes up, and the ensemble suffers. Not to mention equity, diversity, and inclusion.

Your last sentence implied, to me, that you were in favor of EDI over hiring the best player. If not, I stand corrected.

I sat on our audition committee for years and we operated with the blind screens, in fact, that's how I was hired 35 years ago. As relatively new to the area at the time, I seriously doubt I would've been the choice without the screens, having been chosen over 4 or more who had already put in a bit of time with the orchestra. Hard to prove today...

May the best person on that day and time win. Tomorrow? Who knows?
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andybharms
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig, that was the purpose of the discussion about blind auditions IMPROVING outcomes for women in orchestras. It is backwards of what people maybe imagine. Blind auditions statistically help equity. To try and determine why would be merely speculative on my part, so I won’t do that. I think a trial week and an auto advance or two gives orchestras plenty of leverage to support an internal candidate.
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In theatre, a screen can drop down by:

a) start high/folded at the ceiling; fall and reach the floor;
remain upright, stretch from ceiling to floor and hide something behind itself,

b) start from an upright position; fall on the floor;
remain prostrate and reveal something behind itself.

In both cases, screen drops, but the result is diametrically opposite. Physically, the case (b) is a continuation of case (a) as gravity always wins.

Which of two cases was implied?
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mhenrikse
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:
Dkjcliff wrote:
Old thread being resurrected here, but I have to admit I find the topic intriguing. I think that people shouldn’t use TH to personally impugn those who audition others or those who win auditions. But shouldn’t it be a place for trumpet players to discuss fairness in the audition process and problems of bias? If not to question the status quo, what is the internet for (wink)?


I would generally agree, however I agree more with this from the Moderators:

Quote:
Remember that when you question the fairness of an audition you question the abilities of the person who won and the integrity and musicianship of the people on the committee. Further remember that it is safe to assume that they, or people they know well, read Trumpet Herald at least occasionally.


Put yourself in the shoes of, say, a committee member who did his absolute best to be fair, or the winner who worked over many hard long hours (over many years, no doubt) to get to the skill needed to win, only to read a web forum and find that there are people complaining that the process wasn't fair or that it was somehow biased. It tends to invalidate all of the effort and hard work by the committee and musician who won, and tends to act as an underhanded personal attack.


Thats is what happens in presidential elections. Should that dissent be censored too?
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LaTrompeta
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mhenrikse wrote:
Tpt_Guy wrote:
Dkjcliff wrote:
Old thread being resurrected here, but I have to admit I find the topic intriguing. I think that people shouldn’t use TH to personally impugn those who audition others or those who win auditions. But shouldn’t it be a place for trumpet players to discuss fairness in the audition process and problems of bias? If not to question the status quo, what is the internet for (wink)?


I would generally agree, however I agree more with this from the Moderators:

Quote:
Remember that when you question the fairness of an audition you question the abilities of the person who won and the integrity and musicianship of the people on the committee. Further remember that it is safe to assume that they, or people they know well, read Trumpet Herald at least occasionally.


Put yourself in the shoes of, say, a committee member who did his absolute best to be fair, or the winner who worked over many hard long hours (over many years, no doubt) to get to the skill needed to win, only to read a web forum and find that there are people complaining that the process wasn't fair or that it was somehow biased. It tends to invalidate all of the effort and hard work by the committee and musician who won, and tends to act as an underhanded personal attack.


Thats is what happens in presidential elections. Should that dissent be censored too?


That's too much of a stretch, in my opinion.
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StevenE
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:
StevenE wrote:
Are you a moderator?
If you are not, you have no standing to tell me or anyone else to do or not do anything.


Sure I do. Any of us does and we can do it by simply pointing you to the rule, as posted above. It would be nice to have another contributing member. I'm simply trying to keep you from getting off on the wrong foot, since the penalty for violating this rule as stated is having posts removed and being banned.

But since you seem to refuse to take my word for it, I'll simply invite you to reread the first post in this thread. You know, the one the Moderators posted; the one you responded to.

Read it as many times as is needed for it to sink in.


No. You have no such right. My point stands - you have no standing to tell anyone to do or not do anything, including, "pointing to a rule." Let the moderator(s) worry about that. Further, I don't need you to "keep me from getting off on the wrong foot." I am not a baby. I take full responsibility what what I say and do. If anything I post is removed, or even if I am banned outright, that's my problem - not yours.

"Pense a te, non pense a me."
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