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Mustachio55 New Member
Joined: 07 Sep 2021 Posts: 1 Location: Alberta
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:31 pm Post subject: Pulling tuning slide out to tune half step down |
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So for the last 15 years or so, I've been using a "hack" to tune my Bb trumpet down a half step by pulling the main tuning slide out nearly all the way. In most of the circles I play with (blues / rock / folk), the vast majority of songs seem to be in concert E or A, so I find most of the chords are significantly easier to play with with the tuning slide out. For your typical 1-4-5 blues, this changes the trumpet key to G-C-D (for concert E) or C-F-G (for concert A) - which is significantly easier to play than trumpet F#-B-C# or in B-E-F# in normal tuning on a Bb trumpet. Those are far harder keys that generally seem to require more 3rd valve usage (for me at least)
I don't run into other trumpet players too often, and when I mention this it's never come up as an idea, and I seem to get somewhat of a vibe of animosity / hostility for this hack. The only downside to this is that if the tuning slide is freshly greased, it can fall out sometimes if you pick it up from an upright position too fast. I'm curious if anyone else has used this technique too for easy transposing, or what their thoughts are on this? |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9027 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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This is not meant to sound condescending but it probably will - sorry. Playing in those keys is standard and you should learn how to. Period. Knowing them. in addition to the intonation and timbre securities mentioned below, free you up considerably.
I played saxes for about 20 years professionally and learned all the "weird" keys. You have to play in your F#, B, C# etc. It's really not that hard once you just do it. There are tons of scale, arpeggio etc. studies in Arban you can use.
I can't speak for everyone, but if I did what you are doing, I'd have trouble with my intonation. How's yours? Do you play tightly intonation-wise with your fellow horn players? If my tuning slide was so far out it occasionally fell on the floor, I would doubt that.
I'm not saying it's impossible. Maybe you've got great shops and the timbre isn't also affected. I saw Don Jacoby take a solo with the NT One O'clock Band once with his tuning slide way out and it worked. But it wasn't all the way out, he was joking and he was Don Jacoby. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Just get a vintage cornet with a quick change to A and you’re all set. |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: Pulling tuning slide out to tune half step down |
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Mustachio55 wrote: | So for the last 15 years or so, I've been using a "hack" to tune my Bb trumpet down a half step by pulling the main tuning slide out nearly all the way. In most of the circles I play with (blues / rock / folk), the vast majority of songs seem to be in concert E or A, so I find most of the chords are significantly easier to play with with the tuning slide out. For your typical 1-4-5 blues, this changes the trumpet key to G-C-D (for concert E) or C-F-G (for concert A) - which is significantly easier to play than trumpet F#-B-C# or in B-E-F# in normal tuning on a Bb trumpet. Those are far harder keys that generally seem to require more 3rd valve usage (for me at least)
I don't run into other trumpet players too often, and when I mention this it's never come up as an idea, and I seem to get somewhat of a vibe of animosity / hostility for this hack. The only downside to this is that if the tuning slide is freshly greased, it can fall out sometimes if you pick it up from an upright position too fast. I'm curious if anyone else has used this technique too for easy transposing, or what their thoughts are on this? | The horn will sound bad with the tuning slide pulled. Playing in those sharp keys will be really good for your development, just go for it! Playing in challenging keys really improves your ear and you make a lot of discoveries along the way.
After playing with a lot of guitar players over the years, I've grown to love those keys. Work on Sir Duke by Stevie Wonder. It's in concert B and that key just pops! |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | This is not meant to sound condescending but it probably will - sorry. Playing in those keys is standard and you should learn how to. Period. Knowing them. in addition to the intonation and timbre securities mentioned below, free you up considerably.
I played sax, mainly tenor, for about 20 years professionally and learned them all. You have to play in your F#, B etc. It's really not that hard once you just do it. There are tons of scale, arpeggio etc. studies in Arban you can use.
I can't speak for everyone, but if I did what you are doing, I'd have trouble with my intonation. How's yours? Do you play tightly intonation-wise with your fellow horn players? If my tuning slide was so far out it occasionally fell on the floor, I would doubt that.
I'm not saying it/s impossible. Maye you've got great shops and the timbre isn't also affected. I saw Don Jacoby take a solo with the NT One O'clock Band once with his tuning slide way out and it worked. But it wasn't all the way out, he was joking and he was Don Jacoby. |
These are the times TH could use a “like” button. ☝️
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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ECLtmpt2 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2021 Posts: 147
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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If you are looking for a 'hack' or the easy way, I can't believe I'm even going here (we are talking about playing a Bb trumpet and improv), but you can play the modified pentatonic scale (blues scale) over both concert E (Gb/F#) and concert A (B Maj) without a lot of accidentals. Using the tonic blues scale exclusively over a I, IV, V progression needs a little discretion and can get boring but...FYI:
In Gb/F# (concert E): Gb, A, B, C, Db, E, Gb, pretty easy fingering.
For B Maj (concert A): B, D, E, F, F#, A, B. In the 'middle' register also pretty easy fingering.
If you are really serious about improv your 12 majors & harmonic minors (at least) should be 2nd nature. Look into the Jamey Aebersold section here on TH.
Last edited by ECLtmpt2 on Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 692 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Well, it isnt a new idea, piccolo trumpet players still do it all the time, with their A pipes. Back in the early 20th century, most cornets and a lot of trumpets were commonly supplied with A pull markings, or even A stop rods or the famous Conn 80A "mechanism" that set 4 slides at once to either Bb or A. It is just that the OP makes it sound so imprecise, I suppose. If you use your 1st and 3rd slides, or you are good at note bending, *maybe* you can make it work.
It's not for me, but I can't play unless it is written out plainly and I have my specs and good lighting, anyway. With or without a tangle of sharps or flats up there on the upper right hand corner. So I can't judge unless I hear something wrong, I guess. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9365 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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I used to have a 1920s Conn 22B trumpet with a rotary valve in the tuning slide that when turned, put the horn in A. I used it quite a few times for parts in A and it worked great. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: Pulling tuning slide out to tune half step down |
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Mustachio55 wrote: | when I mention this it's never come up as an idea, and I seem to get somewhat of a vibe of animosity / hostility for this hack. |
It wouldn't be my preferred method either but...if it works for you, who am I to judge? The intonation issues mentioned by other players could be overcome by enough practice I suppose. You could make it easer on yourself though by getting a longer tuning slide made (or get one of the vintage models that is designed to be playable in A). I take it you also extend your 1st and 3rd slides to compensate for the longer main tubing? |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:12 am Post subject: |
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Some other notes are going to be out of tune.
I did this in music school when we were short on clarinets and was asked to play their parts. Quite a few were for A clarinet.
When the slide was out, I was very out of tune on certain notes and the sound was not good.
The simple fix is learn the other keys!! Practice until they become easy.
Very few things on the trumpet come easy and hard and smart practice goes a long way.
R. Tomasek |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:51 am Post subject: |
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I knew there was a reason to keep my Conn 80A cornet. If you have an instrument designed to play in either Bb or A, why not use it? In the old days things were different. I have an old mellophone that has all the tuning bits and crooks. The slides have etched rings to make it easier to pull to the correct setting. It plays in F, Eb, D and C. _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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Leeway Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Sep 2019 Posts: 141
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Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:31 am Post subject: |
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I've done this myself. Usually in a non Brass friendly environment! Everybody (usually guitarists) wants to play in concert E or A or D and they just don't get that these aren't the greatest keys to play in for us.
They want brilliance but transposing up or down a half step on THEIR instruments is out of the question!!!
Obviously its not optimal to tune down to A and put the horn all out of whack.
Sure, work on all 12 and aim for fluidity in all keys.
But the idea of a vintage horn with an A Crook is a damn good idea!
What we do is supposed to be fun as well as possibly the greatest musical challenge there is.
Which ever way you go, enjoy it!
People will enjoy your music, they won't be getting all miffed 'coz you "cheat" with a tuning slide or a Crook!
Leave that for stuffy trumpet players. Jeez, that Miles Davis fella made a bad example; took himself so seriously and nobody else!
Just play the damn thing! |
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chapahi Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 1467 Location: Stuttgart, Germany
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Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:16 am Post subject: |
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Playing in extreme cold outside, the horn sounds great. The tone carries well and articulations have a special crispness. But...even with the tuning slide all the way in it's hopelessly flat. Sometimes I can get the guitars, etc... to tune to a 438 hz A. But a quick fix is to pull the slide out and transpose to the next key up. That latter solution works but the intonation is off because the lengths of the valve slides are designed for Bb. _________________ Sima, Kanstul 1525 Flugel and Kanstul pocket trumpet. Olds Super |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2415 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:26 am Post subject: |
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I've done it once or twice on a gig with my jazz trio (guitar, bass, trumpet), to see how it would work. I'm pretty sure it was a song in F# minor, and I'm pretty sure at least one time I was playing/soloing on My Favorite Things. I pulled out slides and played the song in G minor.
I pulled out the tuning slide (of course). I also pulled out the 3rd valve dump slide and the first valve slide just a bit. It worked for me.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 692 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:47 am Post subject: |
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About 12 or so years back when the Chinese brass instruments were flooding the market on eBay with auctions starting at less than a buck, I put a bid on a very weird Berkeley Db (C#) trumpet just to see what their build quality was. The valves and slide fit was better than I expected, but the thing was wildly out of tune. Close examination showed they had simply taken an Eb body and stuck their C bell on it. I guess even slave laborers get bored.
I fiddled around with it and managed to get it sort of in tune with slide manipulation. I eventually found a Bb/C Chinese trumpet of the same bore size and cut the C slides down enough. Was not a great player in any universe, and it is tarnishing away at the back of my closet.
I guess if you liked flats that much better than sharps, just think of it as a C# trumpet, and play down a half step. Tunes in E would then be in Eb, etc. But I seriously doubt it will catch on! _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9027 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:03 am Post subject: |
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(General comment and not aimed at the preceding post.)
If it's THAT big a problem and you don't want to do the work, just get a C Trumpet. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Denny Schreffler Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Apr 2005 Posts: 390 Location: Tucson
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Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Most “modern” B-flat tpts (and cornets) were built as B-flat/A instruments. The main tuning slide didn’t have to be designed to be that long for any other purpose. In manufacturer’s price lists in the early and mid- 20th Century, it was sometimes specified, but seems to have been nearly always the case even if not.
In Bach’s 1925 price list, Stradivarius “Bb TRUMPETS AND CORNETS (Mezzo Soprano)” have the option of a, “Draw-out quick-change to ‘A’ attachment for trumpet supplied free only when ordered with instrument – before the instrument is lacquered.” This would have been just some kind of stop at the “A” tuning. So, the instrument was designed to be played in “A” and B-flat.
—Denny |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9365 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Work smarter, not harder...
_________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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x9ret Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jun 2014 Posts: 517 Location: Liverpool, UK
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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Denny Schreffler wrote: | Most “modern” B-flat tpts (and cornets) were built as B-flat/A instruments. The main tuning slide didn’t have to be designed to be that long for any other purpose. |
Indeed the tuning slide is long. Presumably the valve slides also need to be pulled out to get the best possible intonation. I wonder if someone has done a youtube video on this yet with a tuner? _________________ https://payhip.com/sheetmusicplayalong |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:14 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | (General comment and not aimed at the preceding post.)
If it's THAT big a problem and you don't want to do the work, just get a C Trumpet. |
Agreed.
No disrespect intended to the OP, but rather than looking for shortcuts I would just learn to play in whichever key is called for, it’s not THAT difficult to do. And I know, some would consider this a snarky response, but the OP mentioned that other trumpet players were critical of his method, I understand why.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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