• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Locked Vs Unlocked Embouchures


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 761

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilktone wrote:
It's been over 10 years since I read "Embouchure Trouble and Self Analysis," so my recollections of the book are hazy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the text state that in order to get the air stream to go upstream the player should put the horn angle up? I think there's also some text indicating that the lower jaw should just forward to. Is there anything in there that suggests placing more lower lip inside the mouthpiece to play upstream?


While to the best of my knowledge the actual horn angle is not discussed in either the first or second editions, the mere fact that the teeth are brought forward would usually bring the horn angle up as well. Stevens always cautioned against receding the jaw and opening the distance in between the teeth. Also, all the Stevens students whom I've ever seen had higher horn angles than most amateur players.

That said?

I do know a fine trumpet player who has a downward angle but who is not a typical receded jaw trumpet player. As I studied his dental features more carefully over the years (while trying not to appear rude lol) I discovered that the reason why his horn angle went fairly low was due to his upper teeth curling back in towards the inside of his mouth. This discovery explained much.

Despite the fellow's lowered horn angle, he sounds very much like a forward jaw, or perhaps what Wilktone would call a '''Type IVA'' as defined in the Reinhardt system. That's another system I'm familiar with as well.

The way the described trumpet player played and held his horn looked very much like every typical, amateur, receded jaw trumpet player whom I'd ever seen. Except that he sounded professional as can be and with the ability to lightly play in the extreme upper register. I have found that receded jaw trumpet players usually can't squeak high notes very well. That if they even have an upper register? It is a lot like the one that I used to be play back when I used a receded jaw embouchure setting. I had great difficulty playing the high notes softly then. And in my initial years could not understand how anyone could play them softly.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wilktone
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 566
Location: Asheville, NC

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
While to the best of my knowledge the actual horn angle is not discussed in either the first or second editions, the mere fact that the teeth are brought forward would usually bring the horn angle up as well. Stevens always cautioned against receding the jaw and opening the distance in between the teeth. Also, all the Stevens students whom I've ever seen had higher horn angles than most amateur players.


Well, if your teacher tells you to not receded the jaw, you're going to gravitate towards a higher horn angle. And if you are finding success with this approach and continuing to study with that teacher, you're going to identify with that teacher. If it doesn't work, you are likely to stop studying with that teacher and move on to someone else. So saying the Stevens students have higher horn angles is sort of like saying that runners with big feet will have bigger shoes.

I haven't run any formal statistics on jaw position/horn angle, nor am I familiar with any studies that have. That said, I'm pretty confident that the majority of brass players will want to play with their teeth more or less aligned and the horn close to straight out. However, that's not always the case. Many players clearly play best with a receded jaw position and a horn angle that is tilted down. Some players will even play best with horn angles that go in odd directions. This is completely personal to the individual musician and depends on a combination of different anatomical characteristics.

Jaw position and horn angle has little bearing on air stream direction. This is, if I recall correctly, where the Stevens/Costello description goes wrong. I believe that it states (at least in the edition I read a while ago) that bringing the jaw forward and horn angle up is what's going to make the player upstream. Take my recollection with a grain of salt, I haven't read it in a while.

The player's air stream direction can clearly be seen to relate to a player's mouthpiece placement. When a player's mouthpiece is placed with more upper lip inside, the air stream is directed towards the bottom of the cup, regardless of if the horn angle is close to straight out.



Or if the jaw position is receded and the horn angle tilted down.



Likewise, if the lower lip predominates inside the mouthpiece the air stream gets directed upwards, whether the horn angle is close to straight out.



Or titled down.



What works best for a particular player depends on the musician's anatomy, not how they want to sound or how their teacher or favorite player plays.

I also haven't formally run stats on the percentages of upstream and downstream players, but I'm very confident that upstream players are the minority. My best guess is maybe 85%-90% downstream (more upper lip inside) to 10%-15% upstream (more lower lip inside). There's something about the typical anatomical characteristics that make downstream much more common. Upstream players are a little more common with high brass, probably because on low brass the larger size of the mouthpiece causes the chin to get in the way of the low placement.

Blowing straight into the mouthpiece shank really doesn't exist. When it does happen, the lips fight for predominance and cause issues that you can see and hear.


Link


The reason I bring all this up is because regardless of what Stevens and Costello say in the book or how they taught, it doesn't really seem to accurately define what makes an embouchure upstream. I have a good friend who studied with Stevens and I've confirmed with a transparent mouthpiece that he's definitely a downstream player.

So Lionel, I don't know that the success you're finding is because you are now correctly playing as an upstream player or now correctly playing as a downstream player with a forward jaw position. I think it does matter, because both those embouchure types will respond differently to certain exercises and instructions. As I mentioned earlier, I'm curious to see video of your chops because that will make it clearer which is the case for you.

Quote:
I do know a fine trumpet player who has a downward angle but who is not a typical receded jaw trumpet player. As I studied his dental features more carefully over the years (while trying not to appear rude lol) I discovered that the reason why his horn angle went fairly low was due to his upper teeth curling back in towards the inside of his mouth.


His teeth may be influencing his horn angle, but that's really just arm chair speculation. My dissertation was designed to look for anatomical features and correlate them with embouchure characteristics. The results ended up being almost completely inconclusive. There are simply too many factors that interact with each other to state with confidence that the shape of a player's teeth are going to make for a particular horn angle.

Speaking of my dissertation, I want to use my experience as a cautionary tale for all the speculation I've seen on this topic. When collecting data I had convinced myself that I was learning how to accurately predict a musician's embouchure type by looking at their anatomical characteristics before I watched them play. When I ran the stats, I learned that my ideas didn't hold water. I was remembering the hits I got, but forgetting the misses.

We are all victims of our own confirmation bias. Or in other words, we see what we look for.

Quote:
Looked like the original text recommended 2/3 lower and 1/3 upper but was revised in later explanations. Not clear when that happened but sometime after original text. I was taught exact opposite and struggled mightily to get to hi f when I played 5-6 hrs a day. Huge layoff and a month after getting two aperture and moving lip the 2/3 lower the f was strong.


Rod, I haven't seen how you're playing, but based on your description above it sounds like your situation mirror what I went through. I had been taught to place my mouthpiece with more upper lip inside (downstream) up until I was 27 years old. When I finally happened to catch a lesson from someone who was familiar with the different embouchure types he quickly recognized that my mouthpiece placement needed to be moved to a placement with more lower lip inside (upstream) and my upper range immediately improved.

But to reiterate, that's not going to be effective for the majority of brass players. It really depends on the player's anatomy.

Quote:
''Two Aperture Theory''. This is the correct alignment of both the teeth and the lips ESPECIALLY the upper lip which is the more crucial one


I personally don't find this term useful. The embouchure "aperture" is already clearly defined as the hole between the lips that is opening and closing as the brass musician plays. Adding a term about a second aperture that is not directly related to the agreed upon term only serves to confuse the issue. This is exactly why I object to Reinhardt's term, "pivot." The way he defined it is not how the majority of brass players define it. You're only going to muddy the waters and confuse people by using those terms.

Which is also why I don't care for the "locked" and "unlocked" terms. It's too easy to interpret them in different ways.

Quote:
Despite the fellow's lowered horn angle, he sounds very much like a forward jaw, or perhaps what Wilktone would call a '''Type IVA'' as defined in the Reinhardt system.


I may be confused about your sentence above, but a Reinhardt IVA embouchure type plays with a receded jaw position. Look at the upstream photograph above with the lowered horn angle for an example of what this rare embouchure type looks like. Here's a video of a trumpet player that also would be a IVA, but the shot is only from the front so it may not be obvious from that footage that his jaw is receded and his horn angle tilted down.


Link


Here's a clip of the same player from the side. I can't get this video to embed with the video starting at the right time, so skip ahead to 48:26 in the video.


Link


As an aside, I've changed up my presentation somewhat from when I first made this video. If you're curious to learn more about my take on brass embouchure technique I have this resource posted on my blog. While it uses things written by Reinhardt as a starting off point, I'm not concerned with who said what, but rather what functioning brass embouchures look like and what technique characteristics are found with things that work well and what doesn't work.

Dave
_________________
www.wilktone.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 1870
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilktone wrote:
...
The player's air stream direction can clearly be seen to relate to a player's mouthpiece placement. When a player's mouthpiece is placed with more upper lip inside, the air stream is directed towards the bottom of the cup, regardless of if the horn angle is close to straight out. ...

-------------------------------------
It seems that your definition of 'upstream' and 'downstream' is based on the 2 dimensional (2D) location (up/down and left/right) of the lip aperture within the mouthpiece rim. And is not concerned with the actual path that the air flows from the aperture into the interior of the cup.

From my reading about 'upstream' and 'downstream', I think the 'path of air flow' is important. Regardless of mouthpiece placement, when a player strives to direct the air flow upwards towards the nose (or top of the cup), that is an aspect of 'upstream' playing, and similarly a downward air flow towards the chin (bottom of the cup) would have a 'downstream' aspect.

I think that without changing the 2D location of their aperture, many players adjust the direction of the air flow depending on the range of pitches being played - by small adjustment of their lips, and teeth pressure on the rim.
_________________
going back to French horn!
Yamaha 668N, Holton DC mpc
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2021_April_1_snow_web.jpg
April morning Surprise
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bethmike
Regular Member


Joined: 21 Jan 2020
Posts: 69
Location: Crystal Lake, il

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:40 am    Post subject: Locked vs Unlock embochure Reply with quote

Jay wrote
Quote:
From my reading about 'upstream' and 'downstream', I think the 'path of air flow' is important. Regardless of mouthpiece placement, when a player strives to direct the air flow upwards towards the nose (or top of the cup), that is an aspect of 'upstream' playing, and similarly a downward air flow towards the chin (bottom of the cup) would have a 'downstream' aspect.


I am a somewhat newer player and my embouchure is really coming together as of late. I feel like I should be aiming my airstream right at the throat of the mouthpiece. Is this not desirable? Why would a player strive to aim towards the top or bottom of the mpc cup?

If this is hijacking this conversation, PM me, not here to hijack.

Thanks everyone!

Mike
_________________
Focused on being better, at trumpet and at life.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 761

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave (Wilktone),
Allow me to save us both a ton of pasting, posting, and analysis. Remember, in addition to understanding the Stevens system I've also read and owned copies of Reinhardt's material. Both for many years...

To decide what direction to angle his trumpet, or if you prefer, at what position he should push out his jaw? Ask a trumpet player at which position he can free buzz a High C. Why such a high note? Heck, I tamed the test down a little bit. As I really wanted to see if the kid, with practice, could free buzz an F ABOVE High C.

While observing a number of trumpet players attempt to free buzz these notes, almost all will see a significant drop in pitch as soon as the jaw recedes and the lower lip rides more inside the mouth. To my way of thinking this immediately invalidates the receded jaw embouchure for the trumpet.

It was the opinion of Roy Stevens and William Costello that the trumpet-playing student ought to always begin in the extreme upper register. And I agree with this observation. The reasoning being that converting a lower register chop setting to an upper register one is a total crapshoot. Some may figure it out, but most won't. We see the results of lower register training all around us. Some 99% of all trumpet players have serious range problems. This is the GREAT FAILURE OF OUR TIMES. At least as it relates to our movement as aspiring trumpet players and teachers.

Stevens explains the failure of these systems that introduce beginning trumpet students to lower register training. He called this ''The Evolutionary Method''. And he even admitted that the ''E/M'' wasn't without its merits and at least some parts of it are absolutely necessary to a musician's development.

To be sure, E/M works great for all other instruments. You can start a tenor sax player out on simple long tones. Then teach him scales. Followed by different keys, articulation exercises etc. Always increasing the technical level and if diligent? The kid will usually become a fine player and have no technical limitations.

Not so with the trumpet! But start him off learning the PHYSICS of embouchure usage. AND in the extreme upper register FIRST? Then introduce the Evolutionary Method after he learns to CONNECT registers?

And now you've got a monster player nearly every time. There is no ''hit-or-miss'' as we easily observe in the tragic set of circumstances seen in trumpet players both young and old today. As a matter of fact? If the Stevens system became more widely accepted but with a couple of small modifications such as I've observed?

Our ''High Range Development'' forum would soon be out of business. Obsolete. There would be little need for it. Just as we don't see tenor sax players struggle with cut-off points. Or a ceiling in sound.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shaft
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 808

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

“The unlocked embouchure”

looks like a great title to a book or a method.

If your goal is really to have a nation of virtuosi and screamer trumpet players come up in the next generation then just as with any other method, a mentor needs to produce a studio of new artists on the horn using that method.

Whether it was Vacchiano, Williams, Adams, Jacoby, Schlossberg, et al,
A man and his method was represented by the students that he produced.

It seems more feasible to start with a convincing studio than to desire
that every band director in the nation uses a certain system.


It’s fun discussing various aspects of trumpet playing and we all like to dabble in the discussion sometimes. If your goal is truly to do what do you think needs to be done to produce a generation of screamer trumpet players (which is what it sounds like reading these posts), then by all means we would love to hear your students playing in the bands.

I’m not sure if there’s a need to convince all of us of the merits of producing
great students but if teaching is truly the goal then that work needs to be done in the studio. This is a good place to bounce ideas off of each other but how much is necessary?

The great students and the great players put their time in on the horn.
Not reading Trumpet Herald threads dissecting minutia.

This is not meant to be insulting in any way. Hopefully just more
encouragement that your efforts are used wisely in producing a great
many students who master the horn.

We all have some amount of free time and love to talk trumpet,
however the real work of a teacher is in the studio and the real work of the
student is in the studio and the practice room. Not on trumpet herald.


Last edited by Shaft on Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:43 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 1870
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Locked vs Unlock embochure Reply with quote

Bethmike wrote:
... I feel like I should be aiming my airstream right at the throat of the mouthpiece. Is this not desirable? Why would a player strive to aim towards the top or bottom of the mpc cup? ...

-----------------------
My view is that the goal of aiming the air stream is to find the position that gives the best results.

Those results are obtained by adjusting the everything (lips, teeth, jaw, tongue. etc.) into a position that makes it possible for them to vibrate at the desired pitch.

Aiming at the throat of the mpc might seem like a logical mechanical goal, but it might not be the best way to get results. And if you force yourself to always do it that way, you won't have the chance to find a way that works better.

Position lips (done in conjunction with teeth, jaw, tongue, etc) so they CAN vibrate. EXCESS mpc pressure, or lip tension, can prevent vibration.
Blow with enough air pressure to MAKE them vibrate.
_________________
going back to French horn!
Yamaha 668N, Holton DC mpc
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2021_April_1_snow_web.jpg
April morning Surprise
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bethmike
Regular Member


Joined: 21 Jan 2020
Posts: 69
Location: Crystal Lake, il

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:09 pm    Post subject: Locked vs unlocked embouchure Reply with quote

Thanks Jay! I have something new to experiment with tomorrow when i practice.
_________________
Focused on being better, at trumpet and at life.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 1870
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:55 am    Post subject: Aiming the air stream inside the mouthpiece Reply with quote

About the idea of 'aiming the air stream inside the mouthpiece' - I found this info in an article by William Scharnberg in the October 2020 'The Horn Call' (journal of the International Horn Society) magazine. It's from an article titled 'Horn Playing Tips' (pp 65-67) in a section about High Range.

"Do you aim your air up or down with your aperture? Many students respond 'down' because that is what they have been told, but they find they need to aim up. Do what works. Sit on a higher note and bend the air up and down - which way are you bending the air when the pitch rises?"
_________________
going back to French horn!
Yamaha 668N, Holton DC mpc
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2021_April_1_snow_web.jpg
April morning Surprise
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wilktone
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 566
Location: Asheville, NC

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:

To decide what direction to angle his trumpet, or if you prefer, at what position he should push out his jaw? Ask a trumpet player at which position he can free buzz a High C. .


That might work. Then again, I don't think it will work best for all people. My concern is that it could seem to be correct, but ultimately something different might work better. Depends on the player.

My preference when looking for things like the correct jaw position and horn angle is to do this while actually playing the horn. Listen for the tone, intonation (if it's flat or sharp that gives you clues which direction it needs to move to ascend or descend), and how much effort it feels like to play compared to something else.

Quote:
While observing a number of trumpet players attempt to free buzz these notes, almost all will see a significant drop in pitch as soon as the jaw recedes and the lower lip rides more inside the mouth. To my way of thinking this immediately invalidates the receded jaw embouchure for the trumpet.


Interesting, I have almost the exact opposite experience with students. When introducing free buzzing to someone for the first time, I will often need to get them to roll their lower lip over their lower teeth somewhat and often recede their lower jaw a bit in order to get their lips in the form I'm looking for. Over time they develop the muscular strength and control to keep their embouchure formation where I think it should be and the lip roll can be reduced and the jaw come out.

Quote:
It was the opinion of Roy Stevens and William Costello that the trumpet-playing student ought to always begin in the extreme upper register. And I agree with this observation.


Yes. It's easy to do things in the low register that don't work so well long term, but seem to be good. Getting upper register notes happening means it's much more likely for overall technique to be working correctly, then bring that down into the middle and low register.

Quote:
It seems that your definition of 'upstream' and 'downstream' is based on the 2 dimensional (2D) location (up/down and left/right) of the lip aperture within the mouthpiece rim. And is not concerned with the actual path that the air flows from the aperture into the interior of the cup.

From my reading about 'upstream' and 'downstream', I think the 'path of air flow' is important. Regardless of mouthpiece placement, when a player strives to direct the air flow upwards towards the nose (or top of the cup), that is an aspect of 'upstream' playing, and similarly a downward air flow towards the chin (bottom of the cup) would have a 'downstream' aspect.


I'm sorry if that's the impression I gave. It's more complicated than the summary I posted above, but my purpose was to get the basics of how brass embouchures actually function out there since many brass musicians have mistaken ideas about what makes an embouchure "upstream" or "downstream," including what I recall seeing from the Stevens/Costello book.

Depending on which lip predominates inside the cup, it's not just that the aperture is above or below the shank, the way the embouchure formation lines up will also make the air go up or down. This also depends on the register the brass musician is playing in. The lower the range, the closer to straight out it goes. The higher, the more upstream or downstream the air is directed past the lips (depending on which way the embouchure is blowing). Some players which placements close to half and half will switch the air stream direction at a particular point in their range. Some players will place the mouthpiece so that I'd swear it is doing one thing, but because of lip texture or other factors will actually be doing the opposite if you watch them in a transparent mouthpiece.

Quote:
I am a somewhat newer player and my embouchure is really coming together as of late. I feel like I should be aiming my airstream right at the throat of the mouthpiece. Is this not desirable? Why would a player strive to aim towards the top or bottom of the mpc cup?


Playing sensations can be unreliable for what is actually going on, but if doing something based on how it *feels* is working long term, then there's nothing wrong with that. As a teacher, I prefer to make sure that my students understand that analogy and actual playing mechanics can be different so that they don't take the playing sensation too far and go in the wrong direction.

I really can't tell you the physics behind why brass embouchures should be upstream or downstream, but I can tell you that they are. Can someone play successfully blowing straight into the mouthpiece? Perhaps, but I doubt it. Every time I see that happen there are issues, such as with the tubist's video I posted above. It really does appear that one lip or the other should predominate inside the mouthpiece in all brass players. In spite of what someone *feels* like they are doing.

Dave
_________________
www.wilktone.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 1870
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilktone wrote:
...
Depending on which lip predominates inside the cup, it's not just that the aperture is above or below the shank, the way the embouchure formation lines up will also make the air go up or down. This also depends on the register the brass musician is playing in. The lower the range, the closer to straight out it goes. The higher, the more upstream or downstream the air is directed past the lips (depending on which way the embouchure is blowing). Some players which placements close to half and half will switch the air stream direction at a particular point in their range. Some players will place the mouthpiece so that I'd swear it is doing one thing, but because of lip texture or other factors will actually be doing the opposite if you watch them in a transparent mouthpiece. ...

------------------------------
Dave, thanks for the additional information. It gives me a better understanding, and will likely also help others.
_________________
going back to French horn!
Yamaha 668N, Holton DC mpc
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2021_April_1_snow_web.jpg
April morning Surprise
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 761

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps I am an unusual case. Due in part to the fact that although I had been playing for 54 years in 2018? I was 100% willing to make a serious change in my embouchure. This was due to the injury I sustained three years ago when after an important front tooth had died? I could no longer play the lead trumpet. At all. Sad man!... The only good thing to come out of this tragedy was that now I was finally willing to devote myself full time to playing the Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique. And so I did.

The average cat might not like to take the path that I've chosen. They might reason that to actually start completely over on the correct setting would be to lose their ability to play well in the capacity that they are currently able. I get that! Heck, I felt the same way for years!!. Also, it is really easy for doubts to creep in. That said?

I'm starting to have the time of my life today and I'm ONLY 21 MONTHS INTO THE EMBOUCHURE CHANGE!! The sky is the limit today. However, 21 months may seem like a long time in the mind of say, of a professional trumpet player. Could he afford to spend some three years screwing around with some ''new system''? That and one that I will even admit flies in the face of ''Conventional Thinking''?

What I've often found is that professional trumpet players tend to already possess natural gifts in the embouchure department. While it still might behoove them to learn some things about how their chops work? Not unless they go through a similar experience such as the one that I did would they tend to consider making a major embouchure change.

I'm thinking that the best candidate for the Stevens System is probably a strong amateur or beginner. Someone without preconceived notions grounded in Conventional Thinking. At the same time that he's learning the fingerings and how to read? Teach him to blow F ABOVE Double C. Seriously!

Notes such as these work to assure the student and the teacher that the embouchure is founded correctly. Because if it wasn't already begun in a sound, physical approach? Then there would be no way that such an inexperienced student could sustain even just a bare squeak of those extremely high notes.

The high note squeakers are, in this respect, less of an exercise, but more of a test. Like the dipstick on an internal combustion machine, the squeakers let us know that everything is working properly. THEN we can bring the kid into the sphere of the Evolutionary Method. Meaning scales, fingerings, key changes, lip flexibility, sight-reading, etc.

But not before! This is why I moved away from Reinhardt some time ago. When it came to range and cutoff points? Donald Reinhardt only concerned himself with trumpet players who couldn't reach the G/High C proficiently. Actually, I've moved a tad away from Stevens too although not significantly. As on balance? Roy Stevens was Da Man! He converted many sorry trumpet players with dying chops into phenomenal lead players. And he did it by applying physical science.

We have seen many sports records smashed over the course of the last hundred years. The records set by Jesse Owens at the 1936 Olympics are now often duplicated by high school athletes. DNA analysis has completely revamped the criminal justice system. That and put guilty parties into prison while releasing the falsely accused. Everywhere we look we see both Science and Physics are taking humanity on bold leaps forward.

So think about using a scientific approach to the trumpet. I'm always glad to help, time permitting. And as I feel more comfortable working into a brand new set of chops? I assure everyone present that if I can gain as much as I have in just less than two years? Then you can too. It does take, however, an ''Out-Of-The-Box'' thought pattern. Conventional Thinking produces conventional results. Which on the trumpet sadly means that range problems are the rule. Not the exception. This fact ought to tell ya something all by itself.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
so what
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Location: near Dallas

PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,
You asked for a video of Lionel's chops.
If you can tell how a person is playing from a video then I ask you to tell us how Chet Baker is playing based in the video posted here in TH. There are very good pics of his chops in this video. Wonderful playing, too.
[/url]https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=157771[url]

Sorry I can't figure out how to make the software give a direct link. You might have to copy and past the link. I tried.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 865

PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so what wrote:
Dave,
You asked for a video of Lionel's chops.
If you can tell how a person is playing from a video then I ask you to tell us how Chet Baker is playing based in the video posted here in TH. There are very good pics of his chops in this video. Wonderful playing, too.
[/url]https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=157771[url]

Sorry I can't figure out how to make the software give a direct link. You might have to copy and past the link. I tried.


My guess not seeing the video is without teeth 😋
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 1870
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chet Baker video -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNcLHPiz-5M

close-ups at 7:51 and 14:44
_________________
going back to French horn!
Yamaha 668N, Holton DC mpc
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2021_April_1_snow_web.jpg
April morning Surprise
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group