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New York, Mt. Vernon, Elkart Bachs


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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamahaguy wrote:
Goby wrote:
38 for M bore...Elkhart was a brand new factory, and much bigger than Mt. Vernon. These horns are almost identical to the late Mt. Vernons, except the bells were made using a die, and the beads are round rather than flat on Mt. Vernon designs. Early elkhart Bachs had 2-piece valve casings, and the same nickel trim of Mt. Vernon.
Really great info here, Goby! Hoping my 1965 38 arrives tomorrow, first time I've ever tried one.
It has a Corporation bell which I've read are quite coveted by some. Personally, every Mt. Vernon
I've played has been average compared to my mid-Elkharts. Then again, having Charlie Melk's
expert touch on optimizing them doesn't hurt. I'll be sure to report back!

Actually, that quote has a few problems:
Mt. Vernon beads were not flat, unless they were a French bead option. Mt. Vernon 180 bells (12/63-12/64) were .020" stock while Early Elkhart were .025" stock. The forming process came along at the Industrial Drive location in Elkhart, not the Main Street plant where Early Elkharts were made.
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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Letstalktrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have owned several Elkharts of various ages and tried several Mt. Vernons.
I found the Mt.V's to be tighter in blow but larger sounding than the newer horns I was comparing too.

The best bach I have ever had was a 72 assembled right in the middle of the strike. Truly incredible horn that now belongs to my old college trumpet professor.

I have a late 90's 37 right now that plays pretty well, no complaints. A big thing is that bachs of all eras can be pretty variable, even in the "best" or "worst" time periods.

I have also seen way, way more elkhart bachs than any other era in use in my local pro scene and in my musical career, but there are also hundreds of thousands more elkhart bachs than any other era combined, so, that might not be the most sound comparison.
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Letstalktrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also have a 80's Bach 239g that I love, picked it over a pool of about 30 C trumpets, vintage and modern from most major brands.

Its a great horn, probably the best that I own. It also has more blackburn parts on it than bach parts, so I am not sure I can attribute the horn's success entirely to the handiwork of the Bach plant.
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interfx
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
The forming process came along at the Industrial Drive location in Elkhart, not the Main Street plant where Early Elkharts were made.


Thank you Ron for reminding people about when Vincent Bach Corp. moved to Elkhart, they first moved to the Main Street plant (to the old Buescher/Harry Pedler & Sons plant I believe), before moving to (an old Conn plant) Industrial Parkway.

H. & A. Selmer bought the Buescher/Harry Pedler & Sons plant in 1958 to produce the Bundy line of trumpets/cornets.

Ron - Do you know what year they moved to Industrial Parkway? 1970? 1972?
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

interfx wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
The forming process came along at the Industrial Drive location in Elkhart, not the Main Street plant where Early Elkharts were made.


Thank you Ron for reminding people about when Vincent Bach Corp. moved to Elkhart, they first moved to the Main Street plant (to the old Buescher/Harry Pedler & Sons plant I believe), before moving to (an old Conn plant) Industrial Parkway.

H. & A. Selmer bought the Buescher/Harry Pedler & Sons plant in 1958 to produce the Bundy line of trumpets/cornets.

Ron - Do you know what year they moved to Industrial Parkway? 1970? 1972?


That is a good question, and just one of the foggy items in this chapter.

The official history says the Main Street plant came from the bankruptcy of the Buescher Band Instrument Manufacturing Co. - which is not a valid name (more a combination of a couple). The venture between Gus Buescher, who was pushed out of his company by AH Beardslee who then made Buescher Band Instrument Co. a subsidiary of Elkhart Band Instruments, was Art Manufacturing. Upon Buescher's death, it became Harry Pedler & Sons, and was bought by Selmer in 1958. Just after that, Elkhart Band Instruments retired that name in 1959 and operated solely as Buescher Band Instrument Co. until that business failed and the assets were acquired by Selmer in 1963. I think Main Street came from the latter acquisition.

As for the move to Industrial Drive, I have not been able to get a firm date. The building was vacated by Conn in 1971. The Bach histories refer to it being "abandoned" when it was acquired by Selmer. I have seen dates claimed that range from 1970 to 1975. My personal suspicion is it was 1973 or 74, based on design changes and increased production that followed (but it could have been earlier).

The Main Street plant was never supposed to be anything more than temporary for Bach. As Roy explained it to me: The Mt. Vernon facility belonged to Bach's daughter after the sale, and Selmer had to pay a painfully high rent to stay there. So as soon as the Main Street plant became available, they set about retooling it for Bach (which logically follows a late 1963 acquisition) until they could find a facility big enough to increase volume to the levels they envisioned. That would, of course, lean things toward a move into Industrial Drive, perhaps in 1973 after spending 1972 retooling it. Had the term "abandoned" not appeared, I might have thought 72 after spending 71 retooling, but then it would have to have gone to Selmer early in 71, and that does not align with "abandoned" for me.
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www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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Manuel de los Campos
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goby wrote:
If you have a good playing Bach, for your own sanity, don't sell it!


I did and I never regret it I bought an early 90's Getzen Eterna 900 LB that outblowed my early Elkhart 180-37: As good sounding as but simply to me a better player
I really like Bach horns but there are more good playing and great sounding trumpets out there
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="OldSchoolEuph"][quote="Yamahaguy"]
Goby wrote:

Mt. Vernon beads were not flat, unless they were a French bead option. Mt. Vernon 180 bells (12/63-12/64) were .020" stock while Early Elkhart were .025" stock. The forming process came along at the Industrial Drive location in Elkhart, not the Main Street plant where Early Elkharts were made.


Mt. Vernon bells were .020 stock for only one year (12/63 - 12/64)? Or did you mean 12/53 - 12/64?
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="adagiotrumpet"][quote="OldSchoolEuph"]
Yamahaguy wrote:
Goby wrote:

Mt. Vernon beads were not flat, unless they were a French bead option. Mt. Vernon 180 bells (12/63-12/64) were .020" stock while Early Elkhart were .025" stock. The forming process came along at the Industrial Drive location in Elkhart, not the Main Street plant where Early Elkharts were made.


Mt. Vernon bells were .020 stock for only one year (12/63 - 12/64)? Or did you mean 12/53 - 12/64?


Standard bell weight at Mt. Vernon was .020" throughout, including the "late" horns also known as Mt. Vernon 180s.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, that last post took less than 30 seconds to type - I am really sick of this "are you human" "click on the trucks" BS!
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
OK, that last post took less than 30 seconds to type - I am really sick of this "are you human" "click on the trucks" BS!


Are you using a VPN? Because I noticed a lot more websites ask me if I'm human a lot more often since I started using a VPN.
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