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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:32 pm Post subject: Does anyone have a fingering (+ alternate) fingerings for ab |
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Above hi c and it would be great to actually see notes above hi g as I have never played a chart that had above hi g written, mostly 8va notations I had to ignore at the time. Any help would be great especially the fingering and alt fingering.
Rod |
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Beyond16 Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2020 Posts: 220 Location: Texas Gulf Coast
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Here are some based typical B flat trumpet valve slide lengths:
The red squares are supposed to mark suggested fingerings. The blue dots are alts. But marking suggested fingerings in this high range where so many alts are present is an exercise in frustration. For example, F6 would be most accurate with a 123 fingering, but the shorter tube length of a 1 or even 12 fingering might be easier to play.
Text version here. |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks I wouldn’t have thought of 1-3 for g# or that a and bb would both be 1-2. I haven’t figured out yet how to read alternates from this yet. Right now I lip them about as well as I finger them ?? But they are thin now so maybe more use in that range will develop a stronger tone. Does anyone have the notes as they appear in written music, I have a hard time reading with out the continuous staff lines🙃
Rod |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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2-3 _________________ Bill Bergren |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: Does anyone have a fingering (+ alternate) fingerings fo |
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Rod Haney wrote: | Above hi c and it would be great to actually see notes above hi g as I have never played a chart that had above hi g written, mostly 8va notations I had to ignore at the time. Any help would be great especially the fingering and alt fingering.
Rod |
A flat/High C, for those who can actually play it? Is usually the hairiest note there is in the extreme upper register*. Back when I used a receded jaw embouchure I could absolutely nail a High G. However the next note above was nearly impossible. Even the great scream player Lynn Nicholson says that he approaches that tone a bit differently than the others. He's even put out an interesting You Tube video on the subject. No fooling.
My feeling is that this tone is best practiced softly and with just enough arm pressure that it takes to pull it off.
As for the reason why this happens? It's probably due to a combination of factors. While the note is being blown, the upper lip is usually receiving lots of pressure from both the arm pressure in the front and air pressure from the back. As you must really raise the PSI within your mouth & lungs just to make this pitch sound. At this point in the horn's register, the condition of the vibrating point on the upper lip becomes much like a squashed raisin.
So build up dem mouth corners to strengthen the chops. Allowing you to back off the arm pressure. At the same time, play it softly until the chops become strong enough to sustain this tone without undue arm pressure.
Here is where I like to point out Jeff Smiley"s "Lip Clamp Squeaks". He prescribed them as just a practice exercise I think. Similar to those isometric exercises. But me?.I formed a whole working embouchure out of them. Calling them "Air Pocket Emanations". I'm not plagiarizing. As I discovered their effectiveness separately from Prof Smiley, but I do like to compliment him for publishing and prescribing them. A great idea!
When practicing on this condition any poor fool can play at least a soft F/High C and with a little practice?.Double Cs! And that's before you even put a mouthpiece up to your chops! Now just imagine the the kind of range you'll get by complimenting this very "Rolled-In" chop setting with the added leverage a good mouthpiece provides?
Hey, other people have really done this. Even Maynard was only human. And some cats could even play higher than him. Though none did it better. There is a solution.
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*Actually the A flat an octave below is our most commonly cracked tone, but for other reasons. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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SteveDurand Regular Member
Joined: 28 Dec 2015 Posts: 80 Location: Orange County, California
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Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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Rod,
Notes at that level have no slots anymore. At that point on the horn you are above the level where the standing wave breaks down. Consequently, fingerings for the most part don't matter at all. You need to train your embouchure to hit the note accurately.
I generally use the same fingerings as I would use for an octave lower just to help me keep track of what note I am playing.
It is possible that idiosyncrasies of your particular instrument might make a difference. The only thing that you can do is try different valve combinations and see if any of them work better for you.
Steve |
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JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
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Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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I use the fingerings down an octave except for A above high C, which works best for me as just second valve. Of course, it depends on the horn too. |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:14 am Post subject: |
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I guess that will work fine as each can be spoken with open valve, just not as a scale right now or with any kind of interval . It seems like it just slides where it will. Does anyone else use a partiall valve to assist in sliding up. I am so new to this range that I don’t even hear these pitches as well up there. I think it may be a real advantage to get the pitch locked in so that I know what it sound like b4 trying to hit it. I got a lot of work to sound them accurately and at near 70 and with all my other room for improvent in other areas I’ll settle for a dependable hi g and feel lucky to have it. Bobby Shew says you should always have a reach type goal but be realistic when it’s good enough, then reach for another and never stop digging to improve something.
Rod |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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Rod Haney wrote: | I guess that will work fine as each can be spoken with open valve, just not as a scale right now or with any kind of interval . It seems like it just slides where it will. Does anyone else use a partiall valve to assist in sliding up. I am so new to this range that I don’t even hear these pitches as well up there. I think it may be a real advantage to get the pitch locked in so that I know what it sound like b4 trying to hit it. I got a lot of work to sound them accurately and at near 70 and with all my other room for improvent in other areas I’ll settle for a dependable hi g and feel lucky to have it. Bobby Shew says you should always have a reach type goal but be realistic when it’s good enough, then reach for another and never stop digging to improve something.
Rod |
In additional to all the thoughts in my earlier post? Believe it or not a half valve combination can solidify the nasty A Flat. Try pressing the first valve down about halfway. Remembering to back off the volume some. At least until the tone slots well.
I have no idea why this works but it used to really help me. Of course the partially depressed valve can also reduce volume as well. However this won't affect the tone quality at all. And that I can explain.
Because all notes above the High G are past a point in the nodal system that are affected by the forces that "lock" the tone in place. They become "siren-like". As such, a whole other set of rules now are in play. In addition to all of the above? If you watch the YouTube videos of either Maynard or Chase you'll sometimes see them using alternate fingerings to pull these tones into place.
As for Bobby Shew? Some of his remarks about Bud Brisbois are documented in writing over at the "SeleyMusic.com" website. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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