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adms Regular Member
Joined: 18 May 2021 Posts: 25 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:15 pm Post subject: Vintage King Master vs Bach Stradivarius |
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Looking for a bit of advice for an amateur:
I regularly play a King Master cornet (c. 1947). I recently A / B tested it against Bach Strad (c. 1980) which belongs to my father. To my wife's ears, the Strad just sounded better. I thought so, too, but I also thought that it might've felt easier to play (perhaps easier slotting?), and I felt I could play quietly ('p') on it more reliably.
I know King Master's were pro-level horns in the 40's and 50's, so I hesitate to put it down to the instrument, unless the Strad is just that much better (perhaps due to an extra 30 years of R&D compared to the Master?).
What is any one else's experience? Any suggestions for playing 'p' better on the King Master? Is it more likely to be me or the horn? |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 691 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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I put down my King Master Silvertone cornet for a Bach Strad in 1965. I have both a King Master (brass bell) and. Silverstone cornets now and occasionally enjoy playing them, as they are easy blowing and kind of bright, but the Strad is still more of a power house with fuller tone and better slotting for me.
If you don't need to trade off the King to buy a Strad, keep the King for grins. Not sure what your playing needs are, but I suspect the King case may get dusty. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2053 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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I have never played either of them but in general - speaking as an amateur player as well - I find (quality) modern horns easier to play. Bottom line is that I can focus on the music and not so much on getting the horn to speak properly. Exceptions are possible _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9364 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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I’ve played numerous Bach Strad ML and L bore cornets, and have owned a 1993 Bach Strad 184 L bore cornet for about 20 years now. I also had a 1940s King Master Model cornet for a period of time, and while it was a good-playing instrument, the tone was too bright for my tastes. The Bachs had a much better sound and response for me. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe it's the combination of player and instrument. Or maybe it's the mouthpiece/player/instrument combination that works better compared to the other setup. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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There's nothing wrong with a King Master cornet. Herbert L. Clarke played one. There's nothing technical you can do on a Bach Strad cornet you can't do on a King Master cornet. The sound is a matter of personal preference. They produce different sounds. Which one you like better is up to you.
I have a modern Bach Strad cornet and also a 1934 King Silvertone Model No. 2 cornet. I like the King a lot more than the Bach Strad. The ease of playing is the same to me. The King has the heritage of the classic cornet sound from the golden age of cornets. Plus, it's a lot cooler than the Strad with it's sterling silver bell and Art Deco engraving. The King is on display. The Strad is in storage. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9364 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | …The King has the heritage of the classic cornet sound from the golden age of cornets. Plus, it's a lot cooler than the Strad with it's sterling silver bell and Art Deco engraving. The King is on display. The Strad is in storage. |
My Strad is the coolest cornet I own…
_________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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If I owned a cornet that looked like that, I'd probably use every chance I'd have to share the photo too...
...and I can't say I disagree, it looks awesome. |
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adms Regular Member
Joined: 18 May 2021 Posts: 25 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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My general reaction is that there's nothing the Strad can do that the King Master can't (for me the problem is generally the other side of the mouthpiece), but do people find either high register or slotting easier on one vs the other? |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9364 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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adms wrote: | My general reaction is that there's nothing the Strad can do that the King Master can't (for me the problem is generally the other side of the mouthpiece), but do people find either high register or slotting easier on one vs the other? |
In my case, the upper register was a bit easier on the King, but the Bach slots better overall. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Come on people. No one says anything about the valves of the King? I'm betting they are showing their age. If they were perfect, I would say nothing beats a Master. _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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adms Regular Member
Joined: 18 May 2021 Posts: 25 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Chrome plating (I do mean chrome, they're almost mirror-like) on the valve is clean. That doesn't mean it isn't worn, but I don't see scoring issues. That said, compression isn't good with the slides.
Does good / bad compression specifically affect slotting? |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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adms wrote: | Chrome plating (I do mean chrome, they're almost mirror-like) on the valve is clean. That doesn't mean it isn't worn, but I don't see scoring issues. That said, compression isn't good with the slides.
Does good / bad compression specifically affect slotting? |
Compression isn't measured with the slides being pulled out to hear (or not hear) a "popping" sound. Remove the 1st valve slide and blow into the horn to determine which of the two tubes the air is flowing out from. Then plug that tube with a finger or thumb and blow into the horn to see if you can blow more air through or if it's like blowing into a Coke bottle (you can't get more air in after it's filled up). The harder it is to blow the less air leakage there is and the higher the compression. Then do the same thing with the 2nd valve slide and then the 3rd valve slide.
These tests will at least give you an approximation of whether there's a compression (air leakage) issue. If the compression is good you'll have a lot of difficulty blowing more air through when you test it this way. To get a fully accurate test you need equipment designed to measure the compression but doing what I've described will give you a good indication of whether or not there is a problem. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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Anything you can do on a Bach Strad you can do on a King Master. They're both excellent instruments.
The idea that the Bach is more "modern" is a bit misleading, though maybe a bit true. Bach started building trumpets in the 1920's, but the modern Bach was more codified in the 1950's or 60's.
The King Master model was originally designed around 1920. I'm not sure if it evolved during it's run of several decades. I have a 1938 or so King Master model and it plays pretty well, but a bit tighter than I'd like.
Even though they're both good instruments, one might prefer one horn over the other.
Also, as another poster mentioned, it's a pretty a 70 year old horn at this point. It might not be as tight and play as well as the Bach simply due to age and wear, differences in playability aside. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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