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ConnSonic acoustic treatment


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Aspeyrer
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically, makes the standard series appear inferior.

Yamaha in Japan has been doing something similar for decades. Not sure if it is directly from yamaha or retailers that sell their products with an artists “approval play test.”
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steevo
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be very interested to see a comparison between one of the artist selected preferred trumpets and the same model (off-the-shelf) that has been through the Blueprinting service by James Becker at Osmun.

My suspicion is that the trumpet that has been serviced by Mr. Becker would be as good or better than the special one from Conn-Selmer.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:

QC standards have never been tighter in the history of the company and the volume of rejects for rework and scrap visible on carts at every station is unlike anything I have seen in 30+ years in industry - not just because of volume, but because of the tiny or invisible imperfections rejected that global manufacturers would never flag.

Sorry - having the carts heaped with even more rejected parts is not a sign of increased quality of production - simply a sign of increased inspection. The undesirable variation is still there. The goal is to produce "zero" non conforming parts not to sort out the defectives. (Motorola - 6-sigma etc.)

Quality control by inspection is one reason why US auto makers ( in the 70's) had large parts inventories while their Japanese competitors were able to pursue "just in time" production with little inventory since Japanese components held closer to tighter specifications.

With better QC, ALL Bach trumpets could be "artist reserve".

I admit that I would prefer there be some variation in a maker's trumpets rather than only have "clones" to select from.

Still - if you can find a way to make a better trumpet - a maker should figure out a cost effective way to apply the improvements to all of their pro horns. The path to that is through better quality control.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zero scrap or rework is not the indication of tight QC, it is the opposite - it indicates a gaming of metrics, an activity at which American MBAs excel.

Media and tooling wear, detection of that wear comes in the form of exceeded tolerances. No failed parts = no attention to wear.

Buffing, to produce both the superior finish and some variability in characteristics always risks going too far. Zero scrap or rework = going too far (with metal that cracks under pressure)

Environmentally friendly lead substitutes must be perfectly mixed to produce even bending - the realities of an aqueous solution are that, given fluid and thermo- dynamic influences on solution, they will not always be. No failed bends in scrap & rework = failed bends in the product.

Many defects, such as ovaled bends can be reworked and produce superior product, some such as over-buffing cannot. But scrap and rework are the sign of tight QC, not loose. (And yes, Yamaha has a QC staff too - and aggressively scraps).

The core failing in your logic though is your mistaken belief that ALL trumpets can be BETTER through consistency. That is false. They will just be more vanilla.

Defects = defects, variation = better fits to more unique individuals. Bach knew what he was doing far better than today's "experts". Those selling their skills in 6-sigma, Shainin, and other ways to pay for certified individuals who generate mounds of paper telling you the obvious (or obscuring it) do not assure BOB at all times and WOW never, they just assure more non-productive employment for their own kind.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Causes of large amounts of scrap at the QA station could be:
1. Extremely poor workmanship + average QA
2. Average workmanship + overly zealous QA
3. Poor policing/cleanup at work stations.

Lack of scrap could be:
1. Poor workmanship + poor QA
2. Average workmanship + poor or average QA
3. Outstanding workmanship + poor to outstanding QA

But large amounts of scrap does not necessarily mean higher quality end product.

What is desired is high quality workmanship + zealous QA. From a businessman's viewpoint this would be ideal, but would leave little rejected scrap.

The point about variations being a positive was shared with me by Dick Akright once. He felt it aided him as a instrument seller.

I don't necessarily agree, especially in today's business model of purchasing online and not trying out in person. If the instruments are consistent one can determine if purchasing is a good idea. If they are inconsistent purchasing online is a like rolling the dice.

If one has a relationship with a good tech and can tweak the instrument to their liking then variation wouldn't be a bad thing, but the tweaking could be done to a consistent product just as easily.
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ebolton
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Zero scrap or rework is not the indication of tight QC, it is the opposite - it indicates a gaming of metrics, an activity at which American MBAs excel....


In manufacturing terms, assuming you are inspecting your parts on at least a sampling basis, zero scrap means your PPK is high, meaning your process is capable of meeting your specifications. Of course, there are multiple ways to do that. You could be producing parts very consistently within tolerances that meet the requirements for the product you want to produce. Or alternately, you have loose tolerances and you are producing lower quality goods- for instance, maybe you aren't concerned about having sweet valves. Or maybe you aren't checking anything, and you are finding out at assembly your parts don't go together or the horn plays crappy, and your assemblers and testers make them fit close enough and send it on it's way.

With some products, particularly electronics, I actually seek out refurbished goods. They usually cost less, and you know in the refurbishment process somebody actually looked at it and evaluated it.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is true that QC is only as good as the tolerances.

There comes a point where I will just say "spend some time at the Bach plant - not the nickel tour, but interacting with the management team on the shop floor (not the management team next door in the CS offices)" See for yourself how things are done, as I did when Roy prompted Tedd to invite me there a few years ago regarding this very matter.

http://www.trumpet-history.com/Consistently%20unique.pdf
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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trumpetera
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuningbell wrote:
Could we all be over thinking this? Maybe they are just cleaning up the solder joints, scoping the instrument and adjusting port alignment to make sure it is 100% accurate to the blueprint specifications. Isn’t this what Flip Oakes was doing with his instruments when received from Kanstul? The Wild Thing was optimized for performance by meticulously verifying all of the horn’s tolerances and manufacturing accuracy. I find it shameful that a company like Conn Selmer has to charge a premium to make an instrument correctly. To Flips credit he had a contractor make the horn but he verified it was correct to the specs. Similarly Osmun’s blueprint service gives an owner the opportunity to correct manufacturing deficiencies. Flips total enhancement was available to any make an model if my memory is accurate. Conn Selmer could be rebranding this level of quality manufacturing as a secondary in house quality control called the “connsonic” treatment. If a horn is perfect off the line it needs nothing. Ship it anywhere. A good Strad is a good Strad always has been. If it’s not fix it and charge a premium after play tested by a “pedigreed pro ”. Or, ship it to a small market and sell a local pro or student a “dog” of a horn. Either way Conn Selmer makes full margin. Shameful marketing tactic. People have for years been rebuilding their Bach horns to get them to be exactly right. Conn-Selmer might have figured out that this is a way to get that money from the buyer instead of having it directed to outside companies like Osmun, Flip, Malone conversions… the list goes on and on.


Sometimes I whish there was a ”like”-button on this forum…
_________________
Principal trumpet Gothenburg Opera Orchestra
Bach LT 37 Bb (Mr. Findleys old)
Bach Mt Vernon 1957 Bb
Bach NY ML 1943 vintage Bb
Very old YTR-6335
Bach/Malone/Lechner C
Malone-Bach 229 C
H.Ganter Bb
Schagerl Wienna (older model) C
Parker Natural
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trumpetera
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
This program is absolute genius. It must have been a joint effort by managers with degrees in marketing, finance, quality assurance, and theology.

[QC manager] We have a problem - people complain that there is too much variation in our products. We could fix this with company wide QC training and by upgrading some machinery. In the long run the cost of the program would pay for itself since non conforming product adds a sizeable amount to costs. Right now we have to do 100% inspection then grade the products.

[Finance]The short term costs of the program and improvements are too great. We have to focus on the next quarter's bottom line.

[Marketing] I have an idea - instead of viewing variation as a problem - we present it as a feature... We take the "A" grade horns and separate them into two groups. One group "A" we leave as is, the other group "A+" we do precision valve alignments, double check gap, use the Smith-Watkins "sonar" test to check for solder globs, bevel some slides, round out bell bows,check for water key burrs, anneal the metal valve guides, do an ultrasonic clean then cryo treat the horn. Then we have well know trumpet players play the "A" and "A+" horns and rate them for various attributes. We give the buyer a signed certificate - maybe even a video of the testing. We can charge a nice premium for the service.

[QC manager] Won't the "A+" horns almost surely get better ratings?

Marketing] Oh - I guess so.

[Theology] Predestination!!!

[QC manager] [Marketing] [Finance] Huh??

[Finance] Say - with the signed artist's approval certificate we would actually be giving the buyer real "value added'. The certificate would add a considerable amount to the future resale price of the instrument.

[Marketing] Really? Never thought of that.

[QC manger] Sigh....


And again…!
_________________
Principal trumpet Gothenburg Opera Orchestra
Bach LT 37 Bb (Mr. Findleys old)
Bach Mt Vernon 1957 Bb
Bach NY ML 1943 vintage Bb
Very old YTR-6335
Bach/Malone/Lechner C
Malone-Bach 229 C
H.Ganter Bb
Schagerl Wienna (older model) C
Parker Natural
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View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
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