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Tonguing Speed


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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Tonguing Speed Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
My road travelling experience never called for rapid articulation. I could do it but it wasn't necessary.


So, that's a universally applied concept. Does tis mean that you played professionally with a symphony orchestra or chamber group?
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
Jaw04 wrote:
…..
Somebody else mentioned Uptown Funk. You cannot fake that one with a double tongue, it sounds terrible. You have to single tongue it. And that is a tune that is in every wedding bands repertoire! Trumpet players need to be able to play it. Its fast. Try it!
………


I guess I’m nitpicking here, but I have to disagree. Sort of. I play that one EVERY weekend, at least once. I agree that generally single tonguing is best, and an accomplished player should be able to single tongue that line at the tempo of the original……..unless you have a band leader with no concept of tempo who starts the song WAY too fast….ask me how I know that.😉. But I also think a player who has practiced and is skilled at double tonguing can make it (or most any other line) sound VERY close to single tonguing.

Brad
Hey if the band takes it too fast, you have to do what you have to do! But I personally cannot make a double tongue sound like a single tongue on any heavy funk like that (Earth Wind and Fire style playing). For me personally, I think double tongue kills it. Not saying you can't do it, but I haven't heard it done well like that.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
Jaw04 wrote:
Somebody else mentioned Uptown Funk. You cannot fake that one with a double tongue, it sounds terrible. You have to single tongue it. And that is a tune that is in every wedding bands repertoire! Trumpet players need to be able to play it. Its fast. Try it!
...
There isn't a style of music that you can get away without being able to articulate quickly and cleanly. And you cannot cheat with double tongue.

I can do it single-tongued but it's noticeably cleaner double-tongued for me. I paid serious dues on my tonguing
I'll take your word for it, but I am doubtful that it can be played with the right style (funky horn line) double-tongued. I'm sure it is clean and rhythmically accurate. But it probably lacks the powerful funkiness. Of course, I'm just speculating and mean no disrespect. Just basing it off my own playing.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
Jaw04 wrote:
…..
Somebody else mentioned Uptown Funk. You cannot fake that one with a double tongue, it sounds terrible. You have to single tongue it. And that is a tune that is in every wedding bands repertoire! Trumpet players need to be able to play it. Its fast. Try it!
………


I guess I’m nitpicking here, but I have to disagree. Sort of. I play that one EVERY weekend, at least once. I agree that generally single tonguing is best, and an accomplished player should be able to single tongue that line at the tempo of the original……..unless you have a band leader with no concept of tempo who starts the song WAY too fast….ask me how I know that.😉. But I also think a player who has practiced and is skilled at double tonguing can make it (or most any other line) sound VERY close to single tonguing.

Brad
Hey if the band takes it too fast, you have to do what you have to do! But I personally cannot make a double tongue sound like a single tongue on any heavy funk like that (Earth Wind and Fire style playing). For me personally, I think double tongue kills it. Not saying you can't do it, but I haven't heard it done well like that.


Fair enough. USUALLY we don’t do it at a tempo where I
can’t single tongue it, but I agree that for most of us, single tonguing probably will sound cleaner. When I teach students to double tongue, I do tell them that it’s usually best to single tongue until a tempo precludes it, which is different for everyone.

But point taken. Plus we know that many club patrons will notice if we double tongue the horn lines in a funk tune. “Hey, you guys really should single tongue that…..”😉😉

Brad
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Tonguing Speed Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Lionel wrote:
My road travelling experience never called for rapid articulation. I could do it but it wasn't necessary.


So, that's a universally applied concept. Does tis mean that you played professionally with a symphony orchestra or chamber group?


Can only speak to big band as played in 60’s on a regional basis, but no articulation was not stressed AS MUCH as any of the other forms I played. There were simply too many other things that needed addressing for the mostly weekend warriors who were showing up for a paycheck to supplement their day jobs. We were able to swing tho.

When I’d get to see road bands like WH Kenton Rich these guys were much crisper but still had the swing big time. Never saw an orchestra swing. I really think that the music I saw from the above bands was very light on written articulation, but it’s been many years since I saw it. I was told from the time I started playing to feel out the music and respond and at one time I could hold my own and some of theirs. I think at some level articulation is paramount such as studio where they want as few takes as poss. But in swing bands they just seem to get there as they may. My opinion, don’t shoot.
Rod
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trickg
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:
???? to the post above, I suspect (hope) you don't mean what you actually wrote.

Articulation is a critical skill. Period.

To say you didn't articulate while on the road? Thinking of the ensembles I play in, or work with as an educator, there is nothing with does not require articulation, and often a degree of facility - speed.

As a teacher, we are constantly on the kids about articulation, and especially those who cheat, by huffing, or have faulty technique, like the reverse tongue (cutting off notes as their primary articulation).

If one wants to increase the speed of their single tongue, GOOD. Go for it, and reap the benefits in greater ease of playing.

cheers

Andy

I wanted to come back to this - I didn't see it initially in my scans down through the thread.

Take all of this with a grain of salt because this all comes from my own personal experience and observations.

I think there's a difference in articulation between commercial playing and classical playing. I also think there's a difference in articulation between a student-level player, and someone who is out there gigging for pay.

From my formative years in the early 1980s up through the mid 1990s I considered myself a classical player. Everything was geared toward playing as cleanly and as appropriately as possible. I started getting paid to play in classical settings in 1987/88, and I became an Army trumpet player in 1989. Although I did play in a big band during that time, most of my playing was still geared around playing in classical settings - mostly concert band and brass quintet.

Attacks were important. Articulation was important, however, it wasn't one of those things that was stressed - it was just understood that it was something you already had in your bag of tricks. Rarely was there an instance where there was a line where single-tonguing would have been ideal where I had to switch to a multiple tongue to get it done because I couldn't articulate fast enough. Typically, my single tonguing speed has always topped out around 120 bpm for 16ths.

When I started playing in the Latin band in 1997, my playing shifted. Lines tend to be played for effect in an almost percussive way, so delicacy isn't something that is considered as much, and like Lionel says, it's more about volume, range, and really about endurance. The same thing held true with the 20 years I was with the wedding band.

There's also the difference between being able to single tongue quickly between a short run of 2-6 16th notes, and being able to sustain that velocity for an extended phrase. I can single tongue at 126 for a couple of beats, and usually that's all that would be required. For a short run of 4 notes, maybe even faster.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
……
When I started playing in the Latin band in 1997, my playing shifted. Lines tend to be played for effect in an almost percussive way, so delicacy isn't something that is considered as much, and like Lionel says, it's more about volume, range, and really about endurance. The same thing held true with the 20 years I was with the wedding band.
…...


I understand your points. There certainly are differences in “commercial”
playing styles as opposed to classical, legit, whatever term we use. And expectations and requirements are different. But I took Lionel’s comment to mean that speed and dexterity in articulation were not needed “on the road”, and by that I guess he meant in a jazz / pop / “commercial” setting. I don’t know if that’s what he really meant or not, but if so, I definitely disagree.

And I hope he didn’t mean it that way, because there’s already an attitude among SOME legit players and teachers that commercial playing is inferior and of less musical quality than legit playing. In some cases and with some players, it is, but certainly not all.

Brad
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a "Funk/Disco/Soul" player, I had no problem, and particular need, for "legit" type tonguing. Until I played some Earth, Wind and Fire charts.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
As a "Funk/Disco/Soul" player, I had no problem, and particular need, for "legit" type tonguing. Until I played some Earth, Wind and Fire charts.


Realizing that I’m sort of derailing this thread, I’ve lost track, what are we referring to as “legit type tonguing?” 🤔

Brad
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