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Scary Notes


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BarryWilson
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:20 am    Post subject: Scary Notes Reply with quote

Gentlemen (and any ladies out there). Any time I have to hit a 4th space E or a 5th line F cold I get scared because I tend to crack or entirely miss them. Now, if they are part of a line with other notes before, not a problem. I can nail the G above the staff easily and the 4th space Eb is not a problem. This has been going on for a couple of years. Does anyone have any insights as to why those two pitches are hard to nail? I'll be 66 in November. Am I just losing my touch?
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ayryq
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went through the same thing, with the same two notes.

First thing, practice more. Things that make you jump into that register and out again, from both directions, at different dynamics. Attack and interval practice like Shuebruk Lip Trainers. Practice the first few lines of Hummel. Play a scale and stop on F, then leap an octave away and back without changing your setting. Practice trills D♯→E and E♭→F.

Second I feel like there's sort of a "break" in the instrument there, between D♯ and E—you just need a slight bit more air to get the higher "register." If you're going for a G, you know it's high so you give it a little more air pressure, but you need to do the same for E.

Third, from my experience, once you know those notes are "scary notes" you tend to pinch, hold air, and generally do stupid stuff when one is coming up. As you said "Any time I have to… I get scared." Well, try to imagine what you'd do if you weren't scared. Normal breath, easy. Make that E centered, in tune, and resonant.
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GeorgeB
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do the target practice thing now and then, where I choose random notes and do my best to nail them. I never have trouble with the E or F...or even the ones above them as long as I can hear them in my head before I blow.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two things from my experience:

1. Deliberately practice those notes, especially when they are entry points to a phrase. I feel much more prepared when I have the music ready and can actually hear the note in my head before I play it. Sing the note when you practice and make sure you approach it directly and not from above or below.

2. I changed my embouchure a few years ago to allow the upper lip to vibrate much more freely. This and making sure I have a good airstream helps a lot (!). I find myself telling me from time to time “watch how you hold the instrument and keep your top lip free”. I even find myself shifting the mp position while playing to get back into “vibration mode”.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you think it's because of a “break” , then moving into and away from those notes will help you.

I would begin with step-wise or chromatic slow movements into the note from below and above.
Stretch this into several approach notes, slurred.
- very important is to keep a full air flow and buzz as you change notes. Aim for sameness in all tones.

I may be simplistic, but I don't think you need a laundry list of specific exercises. Just keep this concept and use your imagination.

Later, you can add to this concept, by approaching the notes by interval.
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ayryq
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:

- very important is to keep a full air flow and buzz as you change notes. Aim for sameness in all tones.


I don't know how I forgot buzzing. Mouthpiece buzzing could really help with this. Try sirens through the affected register and arpeggios (connected with glissandi always). Get James Thompson's Buzzing Book—read everything then work up to exercise 8 which runs through this area.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beyond there being a mechanical issue with your trumpet, dent in the wrong place, spit valve leaking, extreme gap issue, extreme soft rim shape, or that kind of thing, I would say that this is not an uncommon issue.

The top line F can be a slippery devil to hit square (...the first note of Charlier #2), it also tends to be a bit sharp. The E below it might be more of a tuning issue - a flat note that you're trying to hit and immediately adjust.

Practice, practice, practice, scales, scales, scales, Clarke.... etc..
SLOW practice!

THEN as in all practice, isolate things that you're having issues with. An idea for this, I call a "first note drill".
1. metronome set at 60 (-ish)
2. thinking 6/4 time signature
3. play a full quarter note on beat 1, rest for 5 beats (taking the mouthpiece off of your chops).
4. think about the next note
5. reset and play another quarter note on beat 1
6. continue for several minutes playing random notes, scale patterns, tunes, whatever.
7. vary range, dynamics, and articulations

cheers
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is important to know the 'physical feelings' (lips, tongue, jaw, throat, etc.) for each note, AND to establish that feeling in preparation for playing the note.
It does not need to be a 'conscious thought' action - better if it is an unconscious 'reflex' that is developed by practice with perhaps some conscious thought and attention to the process.

My experience is that slow practice of exercise pieces that have unexpected intervals is good.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fourth space E is a scary note and so is ledger line A. I think the E is scary because that is a really flat partial so we tend to miss it.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
Fourth space E is a scary note and so is ledger line A. I think the E is scary because that is a really flat partial so we tend to miss it.


As someone who has played trumpet, cornet, flugelhorn, french horn, baritone, euphonium, Eb cornet and a bunch of other stuff, every horn has issues. And every setup, mouthpiece included has issues. So if you play the note against your tuner, do you notice any issues? So many times the centered note is so off that the process of hitting it and bringing it into tune makes for a bungle frequently.

This morning I was playing a bunch of stuff on baritone and the A above the staff was it's usual slippery slope. I changed mouthpieces and it slotted perfectly as did the notes above it.

For some reason, people are reluctant to try a mouthpiece change to fix an intonation or slotting issue. I don't get that.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to agree to that. I can use any of my mouthpieces on all trumpets but the results will not be the same, so I resorted to using a specific instrument/mp combo that works much better than others.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of good suggestions here, but to add to them, the one I didn’t notice is ear training.

I firmly believe that ear training is extremely helpful to especially a brass player. If you can “hear” the pitch before you play it, by knowing what intervals are and what they sound like, your odds of nailing a solid, centered note are increased. A lot. How do you develop a good sense of relative pitch? Singing is a great start.

Of course none of the above takes the place of much of the other advice, but I really believe it helps.

Brad
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. In a way that is what I meant when I said you have to hear the note in your head before playing it, but ear training is of course much more than that.
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BarryWilson
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are great! Thank you for all the ideas. I'm going to copy them into a document and create a practice regime using your suggestions.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, come to think of it: I’m just starting to practice with a drone. I’m not well into it but it seems useful for training my ear.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suggest solfeggio. Sing the note before you attempt it. If you can't hear it in your head or sing the note, you won't get it. It does not have to be in the exact register, either. An octave down will also work.
As you now seem to have developed the mind set you can't "hit" those notes cleanly, you have now that firmly in your mind.
Lip flexibilities are now essential to overcome this condition.
Scales and other practice mentioned above are also paramount.
Don't overthink this! Think of the sound/pitch you want and the minute adjustments you need to make will come.
I was lucky. I was taught not to over analyze and just listen for the sound and result I wanted.
Bad habits can be overcome, but it will take some time and serious work.
R. Tomasek
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
I suggest solfeggio. Sing the note before you attempt it. If you can't hear it in your head or sing the note, you won't get it. It does not have to be in the exact register, either. An octave down will also work.
As you now seem to have developed the mind set you can't "hit" those notes cleanly, you have now that firmly in your mind.
Lip flexibilities are now essential to overcome this condition.
Scales and other practice mentioned above are also paramount.
Don't overthink this! Think of the sound/pitch you want and the minute adjustments you need to make will come.
I was lucky. I was taught not to over analyze and just listen for the sound and result I wanted.
Bad habits can be overcome, but it will take some time and serious work.
R. Tomasek


I have a good ear and stay on point pretty good to about hi f and then I lose the pitch and intervals. At one time I could hear tunes and be pretty accurate playing them to my limit. 47 years of listening to electric blues I can’t do that but I’m still accurate to hi d ( not gaining ground here). I tried training ear with piano but it isn’t doing as much as I’d hoped. I can practice above there but with the lack of any slotting I many times overshot target. Any suggestions for learning where these notes set. I’ve always been able to hear the note before I played when it worked right, but this new range is different. I know why but haven’t solved it. Will an analyzer help?
Rod
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Rod - This may be a factor and other THers might more specifically know, but as one gets older, isn't it accompanied with a loss of hearing in the upper accoustics?

Of so, it means that there are some aspects you can't control. Maybe hearing aids can help compensate.

In the meantime, I don't see a short cut to just an increase in consistent ear-training and matching pitches by playing octaves first, adding others intervals later and playing something in the staff and then the same phrase an octave above with critical listening. Some Schlossber exercises could be used.
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Last edited by kehaulani on Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
... but with the lack of any slotting I many times overshot target. ...

---------------------------------------
Yes, 'slotting' can give a big assist in 'establishing the pitch' - because the instrument helps 'push' the pitch to match the harmonic - if the harmonic slots have significant pitch separation.

Without strong slotting, the player must have much better embouchure control to produce the desired pitch WITHOUT the 'mechanical assist' of the tubing and harmonics. The only way to do that is a trained combination of 'hearing the pitch' and 'forming the necessary embouchure' for that pitch.
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KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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tonylemons
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Creating as many tethers to the note you see on the page is key, I think. Singing in the head/physically feeling/subdiving before so your body is coordinated.. everything comes together during performance to get you closer to success.

Shuebruk Lip Trainers has helped me in practice. Grade 2, intervals, and the basic attack exercises. Use different metronome markings, imagine them as entrances in pieces, etc. Use them as a template, and mentally get off of the page to apply them to whichever situations are troubling you!
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