Help Me Choose One of These Trumpets

[sPUdz]

This is my first post on TH. There is a wealth of knowledge I have seen at work here. Thanks in advance!

I'm a comeback player. Coming from way back. My 50 year-old Selmer Paris is on it's last leg (only one leg is left as it is). My Olds Mendez has run off without a trace! (Maybe aided by that Selmer leg!) Anyhow, I'm looking at medium bore trumpets largely because I know I will never have the air I had in my 20s.

Things are not the way they used to be. Once upon a time, I could let the Band Director know I needed a new horn. The Chicago area was a Mecca for brass Mfrs. A couple of guys would show up laden with trumpets for me to try pretty much all day long. Those days are gone. Most local shops have only a couple on hand and generally not what I'm interested in. Not much of a chance these days to choose at my leisure. So, I am relying on the venerable and collective knowledge of the TH community for help. Following is the order from most desirable to least (to my current thinking). I'm trying to get a goof handle on Build quality, play-ability, valve action, and the like (I'm looking for a sound a little more on the commercial side).

1. Schilke B6
2. XO 16001
3. Yamaha YTR-8310Z
4. Shires Destino III (med bore - getting a tad bit pricey.)

Thanks again!

[Halflip]

[ECLtmpt2]

[Dayton]

There are design elements beyond bore size that impact how a horn blows. Thus, you might be better off trying some horns rather than predetermining that you need a medium bore.

As for the horns on your list, there's no way to know which, if any, will be a good match for you, but I would start with the Schilke and the Yamaha. They are fairly popular, so you should be able to find them new or used, and could easily sell either if it didn't work out for you. Good luck!

[Subtropical and Subpar]

Two more options for medium bore horns, both based on the Connstellations of yore:

Kanstul 991 (such as I have in my signature)
Adams A6
_________________
1936 King Liberty No. 2
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1958 Olds Ambassador
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB
1965 Conn Connstellation 38A cornet
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel

[trickg]

I have personal experience with both the Schilke B6 and the Jupiter 1600i, and I gigged each horn for years. However, YMMV, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

I picked up the B6 because I was playing rock and roll horn lines in a wedding band, and the Bach LB 25 was working me to death - it just didn't have the zip in the sound I wanted, and I felt like I was working too hard to get it.

The B6 was a cool horn and I always really really enjoyed the sound I got on it. The downside was that the slotting was such that if I wasn't working and practicing to really stay dialed in with that horn, it would hurt me on the bandstand, and I missed A LOT. I tried adding weight to the horn with an adjustable sound-post/brace, and I tried heavy valve caps. The B6 is perfectly balanced as it is, and adding weight never seemed to help that horn at all - it made it feel like it was harder to play.

I tried a different mouthpiece, moving from a Schilke 14A4 to a Warburton 4SVW/KT backbore. The defined inner bite of the Warburton helped some, but it didn't completely fix it.

It was frustrating to the point that I started to look for a different trumpet solution, and after doing copious reading, I decided on the Jupiter 1600i, specifically due to the reputation it has for secure slotting. The slottoning on that horn was such that coming from the Schilke B6, I could actually feel the horn pull me into the center of the slot and pitch if hit it a bit low or high - nice wide, defined slots, but it didn't slot so hard that it wasn't still flexibile.

Without a doubt, the 1600i made me a better player in that context. Once I'd acclimated to it, it was like every single gig I was having a great night on the horn. I also seemed to have a great sound on it for that kind of music. When you're using a shallower mouthpiece and pushing some volume, the sound on the 1600i just cuts in a very phat, brassy way.

I know I've worn out these clips - I've posted them several times, but I'll post them again because I think it's a decent example of how the Jupiter sounds for one of us mere mortal trumpet players.

I Want You Back - Jackson 5
https://soundcloud.com/trickg/i-want-you-back-new-monopoly-live

Downtown - Petula Clarke
https://soundcloud.com/trickg/downtown-new-monopoly-live
(trumpet solo starts at 1:58 )

Now, having said that, the 1600i has a couple of drawbacks. Mine has two notes that always stuck out to me from an intonation perspective. The 4th line D was always noticeably low, and the 1st ledger B natural above the staff tended to be sharp, and toward the end of a night of hard playing when I was getting tired, it was tough to pull it back in tune.

Both trumpets also tended to really light up for me on anything from a top line F and up, even with a bigger mouthpiece, and especially if I was pushing any kind of volume. In a classical setting the B6 had a better sound, but that danged slotting was such that I never felt very secure with it using it in a classical setting. The sound of the 1600i was ok, but not what I felt was ideal for a horn in a legit setting.

I actually lost a point because of that on my Army AMPA (Army Musical Proficiency Assessment) when I went to the Senior Leadership Course, and only squeaked by to get my Charlie 1 qualifier. (earning a minimum of 30 out of 36 points) I got dinged on the excerpt from the Hindemith Symphony for concert band because the assessors felt that my sound got too bright when I was pushing higher and louder. I knew the sound was cutting - that's just what that horn does - but there wasn't anything I was able to do about it.

From the list you have there, because of my personal experience, unless you are going to be playing in a rock band or a big band, I'd pass on both the B6 and the 1600i. I've never played the Z horn, but I've heard that there are folks who use it in classical settings and it works beautifully for that too.

If you can afford it though, get the Shires. Just do it. I have yet to play a Shires that didn't have a singing tone. I tried a Destino at one point - it was a used earlier model ML bore, and I liked it a lot, but I didn't have the coin at the time to pick it up. The reason I'm playing a Shires now is because the Maryland national guard bought one and issued it to me.

Quick question - are you certain you want a medium bore horn? I've moved from medium bore back to a ML, and now that I'm acclimated to the new horn, I really don't notice a difference.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[kehaulani]

A rather direct approach is just to listen to Trent Austin demonstrate these horns on his website. Not a substitute for personal tryouts but I've found it pretty helpful.

Just go to youtube and either enter Trent Austin, ACB (Austin Custom Brass), or the horn by its full name.

Although you could qualify certain aspects of the sound, still a good substitute for our words.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[trickg]

[kehaulani]

@Patrick - it's a bane of forum threads that one can make a comment that is not meant to single out the previous post, but can give that impression. Of course your real-life experiences have a lot of guidance and credibility and I, for one, am grateful for them.

As a general comment, though, you know that threads like this also attract comments from folks who talk about horns they're just repeating things or speculating on things they have no personal experience with. I'm just just pointing out that another source of the sound of a horn (qualifications notwithstanding) is Trent. Not a panacea just a simple and quick supplement.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[deleted_user_687c31b]

Fwiw I found your post very thorough Patrick. You obviously put a lot of effort in providing a good, well written answer, which is commendable.

But I also agree with Kehaulani: the video’s by Trent Austin are a great way to compare gear. Not only has he played tons of horns, he’s also a very consistent player, making it easier to compare the relative differences. I also sometimes watch horntrader video’s for the same reason.

[trickg]

[OldSchoolEuph]

[sPUdz]

Thank you all very much for all the well thought out responses and effort put into helping me out.

I picked up a 1600 today for a very nice price. Like many things - I'll see how this goes!

Thanks again!

[deleted_user_687c31b]

[Seymor B Fudd]

[trickg]