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Dichotomy between Double Pedal set-up / Spit buzzing set-up



 
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jicetp
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:26 am    Post subject: Dichotomy between Double Pedal set-up / Spit buzzing set-up Reply with quote

Hi everyone,

I am experiencing great things with the Callet system but, alas there's a but I have pinpointed some issues that I 'd like to solve .

Double pedals : finally grasped the focused sound thing which is paramount for further exploration ( upwards )

Spit Buzz : same thing. The more the focus the less air needed, the faster the vibration is happening .


To me the main issue I have is that the set-ups emerging from one or the other ' technique ' is different. I cant seem to have them ' overlap ' if you will.

And as this is the case, I am wondering which set-up to adopt !

For big sound I favor the double pedal thing, for higher range the spit buzzing.

I dont like to have to ' think ' what to play before I have to play.


I guess my question is :

will the two setup eventually merge into one set-up ?

Should I favor one upon the other ?

should I be happy with having a choice ?



thanks for your thoughts

JiCe
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Double pedals?

What pitches are you referring to?
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wilder
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi. Something does not add up here. Jerry had a terrific embouchure. A wonderful mechanism that could go from double pedal C to almost triple C and back down again seamlessly. I would suggest tracking down one of his former students and take some lessons. Good luck! jw
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wilder wrote:
Hi. Something does not add up here. Jerry had a terrific embouchure. A wonderful mechanism that could go from double pedal C to almost triple C and back down again seamlessly. I would suggest tracking down one of his former students and take some lessons. Good luck! jw


I agree, waiting for the Callet forum moderator, I most humbly could add that the seamless blend of "einsetzen" and "ansetzen" also is the goal of the BE method.
Oh - I forgot: Precicely this amalgamation presents huge difficulties! Takes a while making it seamless....... No wonder you find it difficult. I suggest that you wait until the moderator arrives. There are some tricks of the trade!
Also I won´t hijack the thread for BE purposes

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Dave Converse
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Double pedals?

What pitches are you referring to?


Two octaves below low C.
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tptguy
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The double pedals are an exercise. Use them as warm up and warm down to loosen corners, focus sound, build a cushion, etc. Everything else, including all actual playing is done with the spit buzz.
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jicetp
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the suggestions.
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tptguy wrote:
The double pedals are an exercise. Use them as warm up and warm down to loosen corners, focus sound, build a cushion, etc. Everything else, including all actual playing is done with the spit buzz.


This is how I see it. I do a few minutes of double pedals at the start of each day. The effect isn't too different from what many would attribute to lip flapping in a more traditional context or playing model. I think they're more effective (for me) and a very efficient way of achieving homeostasis.
When it comes to playing - like Kyle said: the closer everything feels to spit buzzing, the better you're playing, the easier you'll play and the better you'll sound.

JiCe, I know you've picked up some of my stuff in the past, but without looking it up I don't know if that includes my double pedal tone book. If you don't have it then send me an email and I'll send a free copy your way.
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jicetp
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet :

Hi Rich ! I did indeed get some stuff ( maybe the whole package ) from you ! Great stuff.

I think now I understand what to focus on : the spit buzzing.

I wish the spit buzzing will eventually lead to the sound I have in the low range coming from the double pedals, if that makes sense.

Thanks for your help guys[/quote]
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Mac Gollehon
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was brought to my attention by a trumpet player seeking advice on MSC that pertained to a post here. I read it and felt the need to comment on the statement presented regarding double pedals “the effect isn’t too much different than what many would attribute to lip flapping in a more traditional context or playing model.” First off there was little of any of Jeromes concepts that were considered traditional. Lip flapping was never his intent. I knew him thru the phases of Trumpet Yoga,Superchops,MSC and double pedals done in a VERY specific way was always the foundation to his approach as well as tongue thru the teeth. These two details were always prevalent in his approach and can’t be ignored if any success whatsoever is to be achieved by any of the aforementioned concepts. Details of the function and sound of the double pedals was the one constant that left no option of being changed,compromised,neglected nor open to interputation. I just felt the need to clarify this to set it straight and alleviate any confusion.The double pedal must be totally perfect in functional process including going to all other registers up and down to achieve any real benefits from Jerome Callets systems. Few ever got the double pedal register right and with the correct sound and pitch consistency. It sounds like a contra bass clarinet. Intense vibration that only the perfect formation will produce.
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mac,

Thanks for chiming in to clear this up. I think that the sentence of mine is very easy to misinterpret when taken as a stand-alone statement and does not reflect my intentions when writing it.
I did not intend to say that playing double pedals was in any way like lip flapping. I only meant that it can cause increased bloody flow to the lips and help to ease some morning stiffness. Although these things are obviously not the intention of Jerome's Trumpet Yoga book, it is an added benefit nonetheless.

I'm quite surprised to hear you say that many couldn't get the right sound for these notes. I spent some time working on the concept with Bahb Civiletti, who also knew Jerome for many years.
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Mac Gollehon
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi TrumpetPlanet-Thanks yes in regards to the sound in the double pedals during Jeromes Trumpet Yoga phase as I said was like a contra bass clarinet but thinking further on it the sound was more metallic than that and extremely compact center. No one I saw got that sound as they were too tight in the corners or stretched,thinned out. Many students were loud but unfocused ,Blatty and spread in that register and it carried over throughout the other registers. He encouraged relaxed corners but certainly not relaxed cheek muscles or chin. It was about bringing bottom lip up at least to midpoint of top teeth all the way across and that included pulling up into the side teeth as well. All this while pulling top lip down and bottom lip up using chin muscles resembling a rounded pad creating greater compression and relying largely on vibration of soft inner surface of both lips. I took a couple hours to get it and as I said I didn’t hear that sound from any of the others and I heard most of them. That means something was missing in their setup. Even Jerome in his later years lost some of that brilliance in the double pedals compared to his Trumpet Yoga phase. But that stands to reason because of the systemic change in MSC. The role of the tounge being primarily the component for creating the desired resistance. That really changes things. It’s a lot of variables to coordinate and will effect sound.
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tptguy
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s an honor to have Mac post here. If you haven’t heard, Mac is a monster on this instrument - nearly unlimited range and power, piss-u-off endurance. I’ve had the pleasure of gigging beside him on a few occasions, and been in the audience more. Many times, I’ve witnessed him play all the lead book plus chorus after chorus of solos for 3 hour trumpet-dominated gigs. He never breaks a sweat, never tires. Mac walks the walk.

To no surprise, he’s also one of the most dedicated and astute scientists of brass. He teaches that major success on the horn is due to the understanding, application, and hearing of the essential, correct, small details. I encourage everyone to pay close attention to everything he says. Each statement is a nugget.

And ring him up for a lesson every time you are in the NYC area. Then come back and post your experience so we all can share.
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:
I'm quite surprised to hear you say that many couldn't get the right sound for these notes. I spent some time working on the concept with Bahb Civiletti, who also knew Jerome for many years.


Rich, most players who use the Balanced Embouchure method to learn double pedals (the RO exercises are based on Trumpet Yoga) don't get the correct sound either, at least initially. It has to be developed. So, I agree with Mac. It is very uncommon to hear a player get the correct double pedal sound right out of the box. It takes time, even with in-person instruction.

Jeff

PS - Kyle, always good to see you posting!
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac Gollehon wrote:
I took a couple hours to get it and as I said I didn’t hear that sound from any of the others and I heard most of them. That means something was missing in their setup. Even Jerome in his later years lost some of that brilliance in the double pedals compared to his Trumpet Yoga phase. But that stands to reason because of the systemic change in MSC. The role of the tongue being primarily the component for creating the desired resistance. That really changes things. It’s a lot of variables to coordinate and will effect sound.


Mac, that is a pretty interesting observation. I tend to agree with it.

Jeff
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's bizarre how I'm being made to feel as though I'm defending my comments here again. I'm not suggesting for a second that everyone gets it straight away but honestly Mac's post reads like "nobody could do it but me", which is utter nonsense.

It also took me a few weeks to start developing the correct sound in the double pedal register and even more time to learn to correctly move between the two lips positions... it's the same with my pupils.
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:
It's bizarre how I'm being made to feel as though I'm defending my comments here again. I'm not suggesting for a second that everyone gets it straight away but honestly Mac's post reads like "nobody could do it but me", which is utter nonsense.


Rich, I think that you have a different understanding of Callet's teaching than does Mac. Mac sounds like a guy who values the original Trumpet Yoga teachings above all else, especially about the value of getting the double pedal sound correctly.

I never thought that Mac said "nobody could do it but me." He actually said "Few ever got the double pedal register right and with the correct sound and pitch consistency."

In my experience, his statement is true. I am regularly contacted by players who share files of their playing routines. Most of them get the double pedal pitches accurately. However, they almost never play them with enough focus - even though they can clearly hear how it is supposed to sound with the enclosed CD.

Is this extreme focus of sound necessary in order to experience the full value of Callet's teaching? Certainly, players can still make progress without the perfect double pedal sound. So, the subject is somewhat open to debate.

And this is where players can reasonably disagree.

Jeff
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your balanced and measured response Jeff. I appreciate your comments.

Chasing the correct sound is, at least for me, the most difficult thing to teach with any era of Jerome's teaching. I've particularly found that the more education people have had the more difficult it is to teach them that "a good sound" that they've been taught with musical performance in mind and the correct sound for this exercise or for this method bear fruit are not the same thing.
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https://neotericbrass.com/
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