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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 858 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:04 am Post subject: |
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So how would a Conn 38a constellation short cornet with a coprion bell sound with a nice deep cup? _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9027 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9365 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:50 am Post subject: |
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chef8489 wrote: | So how would a Conn 38a constellation short cornet with a coprion bell sound with a nice deep cup? |
The short Connstellation cornet will produce a very nice cornet sound with a deep mouthpiece, as will the Conn 5A and 9A Victor models. The Getzen 3850 is a great cornet, too, and I’m fond of my large bore Bach 184 with the gold brass bell option. Most American wrap cornets have a sound more toward the trumpet end of the spectrum, but as mentioned earlier, the Yamaha 2310 is one of the exceptions. In my experience, the King Master Model and Olds Super are pretty bright and edgy.
People will say that any cornet (or trumpet) will sound fairly mellow if you use a large, deep mouthpiece with a big throat on it, and for the most part, that’s accurate. The difference is, if you want a cornet that has a rich, mellow sound (which is the reason most people would opt for a cornet) it’s better to start with one that’s designed to play that way without needing to resort to an extreme mouthpiece that’s really demanding to play.
Cornet life is easier with a mellow instrument and a nice, middle of the road cornet mouthpiece to go with it. Then, you have the option to go really dark or considerably brighter with a different choice of mouthpiece when the conditions warrant. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9027 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:36 am Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: | Most American wrap cornets have a sound more toward the trumpet end of the spectrum |
Dale, where does the Conn 80A fall into that?
(Thinking of Beiderbeck's sound, particularly). _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9365 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Dale Proctor wrote: | Most American wrap cornets have a sound more toward the trumpet end of the spectrum |
Dale, where does the Conn 80A fall into that?
(Thinking of Beiderbeck's sound, particularly). |
I had an 80A for a few years and to me, it fell somewhere between a trumpet and a cornet. More cornetty than something like a King Master Model or those trumpet-shaped cornets a few other companies made back in the ‘50s and ‘60s. Pretty versatile with changes in mouthpieces, too. I could see it being a very good trad jazz instrument. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 627 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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chef8489 wrote: | So how would a Conn 38a constellation short cornet with a coprion bell sound with a nice deep cup? |
There is endless debate here and elsewhere over whether the 38A had a coprion bell under its nickel plating or just a layer of copper that fused the nickel to the brass bell (I forget the more accurate lingo for this process). that being said, I have a 38A and with a deeper mouthpiece it absolutely has the traditional dark/warm cornet timbre we think of for old Arban recordings and the like. I have four mouthpieces that I use with it: Schilke 14A4X, Bach 1C, Monette B11, and Yamaha David King. The Monette is like a 1B in Bach-speak, maybe even a little larger and deeper, and it gives that classic cornet sound. The Yamaha David King is a deep funnel of a thing, I'd say about as deep as a medium depth flugelhorn mouthpiece, and it makes a flugelhorn sound, much more so IMO than most flugel cupped trumpet mouthpieces.
And maybe I got lucky and found a particularly nice specimen, but the 38A just feels really solid, made to last ages. You know how the doors in a really expensive car have heft? It's like that, but in cornet form. It feels like it could be played daily for decades and decades to come. And that nickel plating simply doesn't show fingerprints or smudges.
Conn did make a short cornet with a "naked" coprion bell, the 9A, but it was only made for a few years and they're apparently quite rare.
Addendum: at least for me range suffers on the 38A with the deeper mouthpieces. With the Schilke 14A4x and Bach 1C I can usually get up to F above high C, not that there's much call for it (and not that I can blast them, but I can hit them). With the Monette B11 I can usually get up to high C but it takes effort, and the A below it is very squirrely. And I can get up to F or G above high C on my trumpets' Monette B11 mouthpiece. On the Yamaha David King, I don't think I've ever gotten above the A below high C. _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9027 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: |
I had an 80A for a few years and to me, it fell somewhere between a trumpet and a cornet. More cornetty than something like a King Master Model or those trumpet-shaped cornets a few other companies made back in the ‘50s and ‘60s. Pretty versatile with changes in mouthpieces, too. I could see it being a very good trad jazz instrument. |
Thanks, Dale. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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List of cornets that I wish I hadn't sold.
Besson International
Holton Galaxy
Yamaha 2231
The Besson was just want you want. Good luck. The Holton Galaxy is the greatest sleeper cornet of all time. Sweetest sound ever. The Yamaha, yes it is a long cornet, breaks all the rules. Stupidly great. For little money. They say it is a student instrument. Don't tell anyone. _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9365 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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Subtropical and Subpar wrote: | …Conn did make a short cornet with a "naked" coprion bell, the 9A, but it was only made for a few years and they're apparently quite rare... |
Yes, they are pretty rare, and I’m lucky enough to have found a pristine one. This is a 1962 model, and I believe they were only made in 1962 and 1963. Exceptional cornet, same huge bore and valve design as the Connstellation. Easy to play, built like a tank, easy upper register (relatively speaking), beautiful rich tone.
_________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9027 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: | same huge bore and valve design as the Connstellation. |
The Connstellation bore was "huge"? I played one in H,S. and university and it was not like any other "large bore" horn I've ever played. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9365 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Dale Proctor wrote: | same huge bore and valve design as the Connstellation. |
The Connstellation bore was "huge"? I played one in H,S. and university and it was not like any other "large bore" horn I've ever played. |
Well, we’re discussing cornets here, so I was referring to the 38A Connstellation, which has a .485” bore, as did many other Conn cornets of that era. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 627 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: | Subtropical and Subpar wrote: | …Conn did make a short cornet with a "naked" coprion bell, the 9A, but it was only made for a few years and they're apparently quite rare... |
Yes, they are pretty rare, and I’m lucky enough to have found a pristine one. This is a 1962 model, and I believe they were only made in 1962 and 1963. Exceptional cornet, same huge bore and valve design as the Connstellation. Easy to play, built like a tank, easy upper register (relatively speaking), beautiful rich tone. |
That is a beautiful horn! Wowza! I'm sure it sounds as lovely as it looks.
I learned relatively recently that towards the end of the Elkhart run for the Conn Director student model short cornet, it was made with a 5 1/4" coprion bell. Why couldn't they have put that bell on one a Victor or Connstellation short model cornet??? _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 627 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Dale Proctor wrote: | same huge bore and valve design as the Connstellation. |
The Connstellation bore was "huge"? I played one in H,S. and university and it was not like any other "large bore" horn I've ever played. |
Connstellation trumpet (38B) had a .438 or .439 bore. Ditto for the Connstellation long model cornets (10A, 28A, maybe 6A and 12A), which look like trumpets. But the Connstellation short model cornet (38A) had a mega .485 bore. _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9365 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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Subtropical and Subpar wrote: | …That is a beautiful horn! Wowza! I'm sure it sounds as lovely as it looks.
I learned relatively recently that towards the end of the Elkhart run for the Conn Director student model short cornet, it was made with a 5 1/4" coprion bell. Why couldn't they have put that bell on one a Victor or Connstellation short model cornet??? |
Thanks! If I remember correctly, the large belled 18A Coprion Directors were early models, around 1959 or 1960. The more common 17A Directors made in the later ‘60s had smaller bells. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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ThatFoxtrot Regular Member
Joined: 06 Jul 2021 Posts: 22 Location: Australia
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Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:20 am Post subject: |
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The only cornets I've really seen in my BBB's are Yamaha Neo's and Besson Sovereign and Prestige cornets. If you want a BBB sound those are the three to go to. _________________ Bb- Schagerl James Morrison Meister Trumpet
C- Schagerl Charis
D- Yamaha 651 |
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 627 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: | Subtropical and Subpar wrote: | …That is a beautiful horn! Wowza! I'm sure it sounds as lovely as it looks.
I learned relatively recently that towards the end of the Elkhart run for the Conn Director student model short cornet, it was made with a 5 1/4" coprion bell. Why couldn't they have put that bell on one a Victor or Connstellation short model cornet??? |
Thanks! If I remember correctly, the large belled 18A Coprion Directors were early models, around 1959 or 1960. The more common 17A Directors made in the later ‘60s had smaller bells. |
Ah, I see. It is a shame Conn's most interesting models - the big bell director, the 9A, the 10A Artist - were only made for a year or two. Doesn't seem fair, really. _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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atrumpeter Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2012 Posts: 157 Location: Greensboro, NC
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Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:15 am Post subject: |
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I just got an Olds Ambassador LA cornet for cheap at an online auction, which had a lot of cleanup that was needed, but now that I have, man this thing is great. So easy to get around on, and the dark sound even with the Curry 5P I have (thanks TH friend!) it sounds amazing.
No idea on the 'proper' cornet sound as I intend to use it for improvising, etc. but really can understand why Warren Vache likes a cornet over a trumpet for jazz playing. _________________ Adams A1 Tpt.
Olds Ambassador Tpt and Cornet
Warburton, Curry and Stork Mpcs.
Mostly musicals and church gigs with the occasional jazz jam |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 858 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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Will standard cornet mouthpieces work with the conn 38a? _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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chef8489 wrote: | Will standard cornet mouthpieces work with the conn 38a? |
I'm going to be the first one to jump on this and say there is no standard. Another reason to collect many mouthpieces. _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 858 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | chef8489 wrote: | Will standard cornet mouthpieces work with the conn 38a? |
I'm going to be the first one to jump on this and say there is no standard. Another reason to collect many mouthpieces. |
What I mean by that is a modern mouthpiece. Many vintage conn and king trumpets and cornets needed vintage mouthpieces. Curry makes some mouthpieces for these horns as does some other makers. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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