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chef8489
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So how would a Conn 38a constellation short cornet with a coprion bell sound with a nice deep cup?
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=102143&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52114
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chef8489 wrote:
So how would a Conn 38a constellation short cornet with a coprion bell sound with a nice deep cup?


The short Connstellation cornet will produce a very nice cornet sound with a deep mouthpiece, as will the Conn 5A and 9A Victor models. The Getzen 3850 is a great cornet, too, and I’m fond of my large bore Bach 184 with the gold brass bell option. Most American wrap cornets have a sound more toward the trumpet end of the spectrum, but as mentioned earlier, the Yamaha 2310 is one of the exceptions. In my experience, the King Master Model and Olds Super are pretty bright and edgy.

People will say that any cornet (or trumpet) will sound fairly mellow if you use a large, deep mouthpiece with a big throat on it, and for the most part, that’s accurate. The difference is, if you want a cornet that has a rich, mellow sound (which is the reason most people would opt for a cornet) it’s better to start with one that’s designed to play that way without needing to resort to an extreme mouthpiece that’s really demanding to play.

Cornet life is easier with a mellow instrument and a nice, middle of the road cornet mouthpiece to go with it. Then, you have the option to go really dark or considerably brighter with a different choice of mouthpiece when the conditions warrant.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
Most American wrap cornets have a sound more toward the trumpet end of the spectrum


Dale, where does the Conn 80A fall into that?
(Thinking of Beiderbeck's sound, particularly).
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Dale Proctor wrote:
Most American wrap cornets have a sound more toward the trumpet end of the spectrum


Dale, where does the Conn 80A fall into that?
(Thinking of Beiderbeck's sound, particularly).


I had an 80A for a few years and to me, it fell somewhere between a trumpet and a cornet. More cornetty than something like a King Master Model or those trumpet-shaped cornets a few other companies made back in the ‘50s and ‘60s. Pretty versatile with changes in mouthpieces, too. I could see it being a very good trad jazz instrument.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chef8489 wrote:
So how would a Conn 38a constellation short cornet with a coprion bell sound with a nice deep cup?


There is endless debate here and elsewhere over whether the 38A had a coprion bell under its nickel plating or just a layer of copper that fused the nickel to the brass bell (I forget the more accurate lingo for this process). that being said, I have a 38A and with a deeper mouthpiece it absolutely has the traditional dark/warm cornet timbre we think of for old Arban recordings and the like. I have four mouthpieces that I use with it: Schilke 14A4X, Bach 1C, Monette B11, and Yamaha David King. The Monette is like a 1B in Bach-speak, maybe even a little larger and deeper, and it gives that classic cornet sound. The Yamaha David King is a deep funnel of a thing, I'd say about as deep as a medium depth flugelhorn mouthpiece, and it makes a flugelhorn sound, much more so IMO than most flugel cupped trumpet mouthpieces.

And maybe I got lucky and found a particularly nice specimen, but the 38A just feels really solid, made to last ages. You know how the doors in a really expensive car have heft? It's like that, but in cornet form. It feels like it could be played daily for decades and decades to come. And that nickel plating simply doesn't show fingerprints or smudges.

Conn did make a short cornet with a "naked" coprion bell, the 9A, but it was only made for a few years and they're apparently quite rare.

Addendum: at least for me range suffers on the 38A with the deeper mouthpieces. With the Schilke 14A4x and Bach 1C I can usually get up to F above high C, not that there's much call for it (and not that I can blast them, but I can hit them). With the Monette B11 I can usually get up to high C but it takes effort, and the A below it is very squirrely. And I can get up to F or G above high C on my trumpets' Monette B11 mouthpiece. On the Yamaha David King, I don't think I've ever gotten above the A below high C.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:

I had an 80A for a few years and to me, it fell somewhere between a trumpet and a cornet. More cornetty than something like a King Master Model or those trumpet-shaped cornets a few other companies made back in the ‘50s and ‘60s. Pretty versatile with changes in mouthpieces, too. I could see it being a very good trad jazz instrument.

Thanks, Dale.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

List of cornets that I wish I hadn't sold.

Besson International
Holton Galaxy
Yamaha 2231

The Besson was just want you want. Good luck. The Holton Galaxy is the greatest sleeper cornet of all time. Sweetest sound ever. The Yamaha, yes it is a long cornet, breaks all the rules. Stupidly great. For little money. They say it is a student instrument. Don't tell anyone.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
…Conn did make a short cornet with a "naked" coprion bell, the 9A, but it was only made for a few years and they're apparently quite rare...


Yes, they are pretty rare, and I’m lucky enough to have found a pristine one. This is a 1962 model, and I believe they were only made in 1962 and 1963. Exceptional cornet, same huge bore and valve design as the Connstellation. Easy to play, built like a tank, easy upper register (relatively speaking), beautiful rich tone.


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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
same huge bore and valve design as the Connstellation.

The Connstellation bore was "huge"? I played one in H,S. and university and it was not like any other "large bore" horn I've ever played.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Dale Proctor wrote:
same huge bore and valve design as the Connstellation.

The Connstellation bore was "huge"? I played one in H,S. and university and it was not like any other "large bore" horn I've ever played.


Well, we’re discussing cornets here, so I was referring to the 38A Connstellation, which has a .485” bore, as did many other Conn cornets of that era.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
…Conn did make a short cornet with a "naked" coprion bell, the 9A, but it was only made for a few years and they're apparently quite rare...


Yes, they are pretty rare, and I’m lucky enough to have found a pristine one. This is a 1962 model, and I believe they were only made in 1962 and 1963. Exceptional cornet, same huge bore and valve design as the Connstellation. Easy to play, built like a tank, easy upper register (relatively speaking), beautiful rich tone.


That is a beautiful horn! Wowza! I'm sure it sounds as lovely as it looks.

I learned relatively recently that towards the end of the Elkhart run for the Conn Director student model short cornet, it was made with a 5 1/4" coprion bell. Why couldn't they have put that bell on one a Victor or Connstellation short model cornet???
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Dale Proctor wrote:
same huge bore and valve design as the Connstellation.

The Connstellation bore was "huge"? I played one in H,S. and university and it was not like any other "large bore" horn I've ever played.


Connstellation trumpet (38B) had a .438 or .439 bore. Ditto for the Connstellation long model cornets (10A, 28A, maybe 6A and 12A), which look like trumpets. But the Connstellation short model cornet (38A) had a mega .485 bore.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
…That is a beautiful horn! Wowza! I'm sure it sounds as lovely as it looks.

I learned relatively recently that towards the end of the Elkhart run for the Conn Director student model short cornet, it was made with a 5 1/4" coprion bell. Why couldn't they have put that bell on one a Victor or Connstellation short model cornet???


Thanks! If I remember correctly, the large belled 18A Coprion Directors were early models, around 1959 or 1960. The more common 17A Directors made in the later ‘60s had smaller bells.
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ThatFoxtrot
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only cornets I've really seen in my BBB's are Yamaha Neo's and Besson Sovereign and Prestige cornets. If you want a BBB sound those are the three to go to.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
…That is a beautiful horn! Wowza! I'm sure it sounds as lovely as it looks.

I learned relatively recently that towards the end of the Elkhart run for the Conn Director student model short cornet, it was made with a 5 1/4" coprion bell. Why couldn't they have put that bell on one a Victor or Connstellation short model cornet???


Thanks! If I remember correctly, the large belled 18A Coprion Directors were early models, around 1959 or 1960. The more common 17A Directors made in the later ‘60s had smaller bells.


Ah, I see. It is a shame Conn's most interesting models - the big bell director, the 9A, the 10A Artist - were only made for a year or two. Doesn't seem fair, really.
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atrumpeter
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just got an Olds Ambassador LA cornet for cheap at an online auction, which had a lot of cleanup that was needed, but now that I have, man this thing is great. So easy to get around on, and the dark sound even with the Curry 5P I have (thanks TH friend!) it sounds amazing.

No idea on the 'proper' cornet sound as I intend to use it for improvising, etc. but really can understand why Warren Vache likes a cornet over a trumpet for jazz playing.
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will standard cornet mouthpieces work with the conn 38a?
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chef8489 wrote:
Will standard cornet mouthpieces work with the conn 38a?


I'm going to be the first one to jump on this and say there is no standard. Another reason to collect many mouthpieces.
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
chef8489 wrote:
Will standard cornet mouthpieces work with the conn 38a?


I'm going to be the first one to jump on this and say there is no standard. Another reason to collect many mouthpieces.

What I mean by that is a modern mouthpiece. Many vintage conn and king trumpets and cornets needed vintage mouthpieces. Curry makes some mouthpieces for these horns as does some other makers.
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