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First Mouthpiece Safari



 
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LiamTrumpet
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Joined: 12 Oct 2021
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:35 pm    Post subject: First Mouthpiece Safari Reply with quote

Hey. I've been playing for the past 5-6 years in school and I've been one of the better players. I've used a Yamaha 11B4 that entire time. I want to start exploring and see what kind of mouthpiece works best for me because I hear it can be a good experience to graduate from one's first mouthpiece. Right now I have pretty good tone and can play up to a prolonged high C with high G in shorts bursts. Any tips for me?

Last edited by LiamTrumpet on Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jaw04
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Location: California

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mouthpiece choice is about making trade-offs. You make certain sacrifices to gain different benefits depending on your musical goals. This is a good video to watch. Educate yourself on rim shape, rim size, cup depth, throat, and backbore and try some mouthpieces from a friend or teacher.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05f6C4_WyCs
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get a feel for what you have...the ID, cup depth and shape, rim profile, throat (prolly a 27) and backbore. Then read about the effect of the various parameters. Once you have an idea of what you might like to change and what you'd like to keep about the same, you can identify mpcs that you might like to try.

If you have access to a credit card, there are several sellers who will send you mouthpieces to try and who will credit your card when/if you return them in good condition. This would be a better strategy than just buying mouthpieces outright. You might even try out a new piece and then return it and find a used one in the marketplace here or somewhere else.

What you are playing on is about the size of a Bach 2, which is fairly large. So maybe no need to go larger unless you are feeling cramped. You say you like your tone, so maybe no need to go to a deeper cup. You could stay where you are if there isn't anything wrong, or go to a deeper cup to see if you like that tone or response better. You could also try something with a smaller ID. Possibly you could try some of your friends' mouthpieces.

Be aware of the saying " if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
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Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
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Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .
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LiamTrumpet
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Joined: 12 Oct 2021
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

royjohn wrote:
What you are playing on is about the size of a Bach 2, which is fairly large"


I've heard it's also comparable to a Bach 7 rim. Is there much of a difference between the 2 and 7?

I assume you just mean that the inner rim diameter is comparable rather than the mouthpieces overall?
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Liam,
The 11B4 has an ID of 16.46mm, the Bach 2 is 16.50mm. The rim of the 11B4 is described as medium, that of the Bach 2 as medium wide. The Bach 7C has an ID of 16.20mm, quite a bit smaller than the 11B4. The rim is described as medium wide, lowered towards the outside, medium sharp inside.

If you want to look at this in more depth, the Kanstul mouthpiece comparator is still on line and you can look at various profiles and compare them to each other. The Yamaha 11B4 is not listed, but similar Schilkes are listed, but not the 11B4.

Good luck on your search!
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .
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LiamTrumpet
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Joined: 12 Oct 2021
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

royjohn wrote:
Hi Liam,
The 11B4 has an ID of 16.46mm, the Bach 2 is 16.50mm. The rim of the 11B4 is described as medium, that of the Bach 2 as medium wide. The Bach 7C has an ID of 16.20mm, quite a bit smaller than the 11B4. The rim is described as medium wide, lowered towards the outside, medium sharp inside.

If you want to look at this in more depth, the Kanstul mouthpiece comparator is still on line and you can look at various profiles and compare them to each other. The Yamaha 11B4 is not listed, but similar Schilkes are listed, but not the 11B4.

Good luck on your search!


Thanks for your help and time.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe a moderator could merge the two identical threads?
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Irving
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bach's measurements are not correct. The Yamaha 11 series is comparable with The Bach 7. The Bach 2 is much larger, comparable with Yamaha 15.
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delano
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Joined: 18 Jan 2009
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Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LiamTrumpet wrote:
royjohn wrote:
What you are playing on is about the size of a Bach 2, which is fairly large"


I've heard it's also comparable to a Bach 7 rim. Is there much of a difference between the 2 and 7?


You are right. What royjohn is doing is not possible. You can't simply compare measurements from Bach with those of another brand, the Bach measurements are quite weird. As an illustration I give you here a mouthpiece comparison chart which gives an indication of the differences between the official measurements as given by Bach and the real measurements as is done by most other brands:

http://mouthpieceexpress.com/catalog/fox-charts.php

Read also the introduction above: ALL EMASUREMENTS ARE ONLY INDICATIVE, it's only a rough approach of the reality.

The Yamaha 11 rim is indeed some Bach 7 size, maybe a tiny bit smaller (a Bach 2 or 2C may be roughly in the size of something between a Yamaha 14 or 15).
If you want to stay close to your current setup I would go with a Yamaha 13B4 (or 13C4 if you want to try the popular C cup). Or maybe better: a 14B4, very good mouthpiece, I played it for years, just a tiny bit smaller than the very popular 3C mouthpieces,(nowadays I play the Yamaha 14D4, the best mouthpiece for me up to now and I tried a lot of them). They are all very good and cheap so you will not go bankrupt on these.

Edit: I was writing this post and then Irving was faster.


Last edited by delano on Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:17 am; edited 3 times in total
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irving wrote:
Bach's measurements are not correct. The Yamaha 11 series is comparable with The Bach 7. The Bach 2 is much larger, comparable with Yamaha 15.

Agree. I've tried the Yamaha 11 series. It's definitely comparable to a Bach 7.

Mike
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good sound, good range and tuning, clear articulation, decent flexibility, endurance ok? = no need to change.

and Yes, the 11B4 is comparable to a Bach 7C. An excellent all-around mouthpiece

If you go on to study with a teacher, say at college or for college prep, you may look at other mouthpieces to make small improvements in an area or two.
We do begin to experiement to dial in the best fit for our chops and playing needs. i.e. trying a Yamaha 14B4 to see if a larger diameter adds anything tho your sound/range/endurance or does it take away things.?
Then as you grow, you may have the want to look for variations on your current piece to optimize things with different trumpets (C, D, picc..) and for more refined situations (commercial settings vs legit settings).
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
Maybe a moderator could merge the two identical threads?

I felt the same but looked closer at the two and if I'm not mistaking, the other post referred to a jazz/pop mpc. while this is more generalist.

I don't know if it's my misunderstanding or if the OP is asking two different questions or if he just isn't sure about this. At any rate, IMO different goals.
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Last edited by kehaulani on Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello All,
Thanks for correcting my mis-step. I didn't know how far off the Bach measurements are from everyone else's. I did look at the Bach 7C as compared to a Schilke 11C2, which was the closest I could get to a Yamaha 11B4. The Schilke 11C2 is an exact match to the Bach 7C according to the Kanstul Mouthpiece Comparator. So it appears that y'all are right and the ID of the 11B4 is about equal to the 7C. Next time I'll use the Comparator instead of someone's measurements.
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .
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Manuel de los Campos
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:44 am    Post subject: Re: First Mouthpiece Safari Reply with quote

LiamTrumpet wrote:
Hey. I've been playing for the past 5-6 years in school and I've been one of the better players. I've used a Yamaha 11B4 that entire time. I want to start exploring and see what kind of mouthpiece works best for me because I hear it can be a good experience to graduate from one's first mouthpiece. Right now I have pretty good tone and can play up to a prolonged high C with high G in shorts bursts. Any tips for me?


The Yamaha 11B4 is a great mouthpiece, nice comfortable rim, if you want to try somthing 'bigger' I can recomment the Warburton 5M (like Bach 6D) or 4M (like Bach 3D), the Warburton M cup has a bit of a V shape underneat that makes it moves the air faster so it works more economic -at least to me.

This is what they say about their M cup: "M - Medium depth with a modified "V" style shape. Our M cup design is the most popular because it works well in all playing situations from jazz to symphonic." which I admit.

Yamaha makes bigger mouthpieces as well but unfortunately they change the shape of the rim as well; to me that was the reason to switch to Warburton, I really disliked the bigger Yamaha 13B4

https://warburton-usa.com/collections/trumpet-mouthpieces/products/trumpet-mouthpiece-top
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gwood66
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless you really know what you want to achieve by the change it will be hard for anyone to give you any real advice on what to try. Keep in mind that as long as you are not playing on the completely wrong mouthpiece that you will probably not find any magic mouthpieces. I would recommend educating yourself on mouthpieces in general so that have an idea what might change if you make a switch. Unless you live next to a larger music store or know someone with the size you would like to try, ebay might be a good route to go. You can pick up something cheap and resell it later if it doesn't work.

Here is a chart that you can use to compare Yamaha mouthpiece sizes to Bach and others. The chart says that the 11B4 is comparable to a Bach 7D.

https://www.musicarts.com/yamaha-standard-trumpet-mouthpiece-main0027116

Here is the Yamaha Catalog for additional information

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/winds/mouthpieces/trumpets/downloads.html#product-tabs

Here are a couple of places you can go to educate yourself on the different factors that are taken into account when making a mouthpiece.

https://www.everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/How_to_Select_Mouthpiece.html

https://www.grmouthpieces.com/category-s/271.htm
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
Good sound, good range and tuning, clear articulation, decent flexibility, endurance ok? = no need to change...
...Then as you grow, you may have the want to look for variations on your current piece to optimize things with different trumpets (C, D, picc..) and for more refined situations (commercial settings vs legit settings).


Rim choice, at least for me, was and is the critical common denominator. Style requirements, horn changes and modifications, as well as aging of the operator, bring different needs into view. Playing a wide range of the components other than the primary operator/mouthpiece connection point seems to be the least disruptive path to achieving this end, once again, at least from my personal experience.

(Insert the proverbial YMMV here)

Best wishes,

Mike
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