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Doug Elliott found the answer for me


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deesson
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doug Elliott Wrote:

You have described exactly how Reinhardt did it.
Just to be clear, at this point about 35 years after I studied with him, I do things differently, and I know it's more effective. This is how I got in trouble with Rich 5 years ago.....
We need to face the fact that Reinhardt had a bad reputation among many brass players, and it was for a reason - the Pivot System was just too much information, and confusing. I have basically boiled it down to the important stuff.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, Doc did go into detail. And I'm pretty sure you've made your point by now that you don't agree with everything Doc taught.
So, are you saying you no longer use the pivot deviation sheet?
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not that I don't agree with what he taught. I don't agree with the presentation, I saw too many people who didn't get it, and some who were mis-typed.

No I don't use the deviation sheet or anything like it, although at one time I was using a mirror image picture of the student with arrows to indicate pivot direction (I think Dave Wilkin is using one for his avatar.) But even with that a lot of people would misunderstand it, or not get the fact that it was a mirror image. I simply make sure the student understands what he or she needs to do. And I leave jaw motion out of it. No confusion.

Doc SPECIFICALLY asked me to carry on where he left off. That's what I'm doing.
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm another person who was typed IIIB (by Rich), and later typed IIIA (by Doug).

Rich is the first person to hip me to Reinhardt. At the time, as many of you already know from my posts, my chops were a complete disaster. I have no doubt now that it was being caused by type switching. Rich showed me some things like how to place, how to breathe, etc and my playing dramatically improved. I played like a IIIB all the time back then.

After that initial lesson, I experienced what many people who type switch experience. One week it would be ok, the next 2 would be miserable, and on and on. I definitely can play like a IIIB, but it's not consistent and I definitely can't do the things that a professional trumpet player must do consistently (have endurance, make it through a gig sounding good, play high notes, etc).

When Doug saw me play in person, I think he immediately knew that I was type switching (Doug can confirm). I had the sort of miraculous recovery that I experienced during my first lesson with Rich, but this time it stuck.

Now I'm fully a IIIA, and I sometimes have to pinch myself when I do certain things on the horn. I can take time off (days at a time) and come back feeling fine. High notes, low notes (could NEVER play below low c with any authority), tonuging, flexibilty - it's all better as a IIIA. The consistency is the best part. I don't want to brag . . . but I just don't have "bad chop days" anymore.

I also play in the red of my lip, which as a IIIA must be pretty rare. That said, my placement is higher than it used to be, and I no longer have the issue of the mouthpiece wanting to slide down my chops.

Long story short, I'm thankful for both Rich and Dave. I had no doubt I was playing as a IIIB all those years ago. That, paired with my placement, why wouldnt' I be a IIIB? I'm also thankful for Doug for seeing that the problems I was experiencing were caused by years of ingrained pivoting habits that could work, but wouldn't work as well as being a IIIA all the time.

Reinhardt Lives! (Sorry to hijack your post Rich!)
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Sailors wrote:
Reinhardt Lives! (Sorry to hijack your post Rich!)

If giving a Reinhardt-based testimonial and singing Doug’s praises is hijacking a post, then we need more of that around here!

You, Mike, are one of the two people who came to me who later went to Doug and Doug got them straightened out. I’m not afraid to admit that I have not always been successful figuring out a player’s type, although I’m not terribly proud of that fact. I just hope that I didn’t contribute to anybody throwing in the towel. I came near doing just that, seriously, but there’s this guy inside me who is not a quitter.

For people who come here to find out about the teaching of Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt, you can definitely learn a lot here. For people who want help straightening out their playing difficulties, I am hereafter referring them to Doug Elliott.

(Note to self: I need to take down that Skype Orientation & Analysis stuff from my website.)


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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BeboppinFool wrote:
Mike Sailors wrote:
Reinhardt Lives! (Sorry to hijack your post Rich!)

If giving a Reinhardt-based testimonial and singing Doug’s praises is hijacking a post, then we need more of that around here!

You, Mike, are one of the two people who came to me who later went to Doug and Doug got them straightened out. I’m not afraid to admit that I have not always been successful figuring out a player’s type, although I’m not terribly proud of that fact. I just hope that I didn’t contribute to anybody throwing in the towel. I came near doing just that, seriously, but there’s this guy inside me who is not a quitter.

For people who come here to find out about the teaching of Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt, you can definitely learn a lot here. For people who want help straightening out their playing difficulties, I am hereafter referring them to Doug Elliott.

(Note to self: I need to take down that Skype Orientation & Analysis stuff from my website.)



Well I personally think that it would be crazy for you to stop teaching, if that’s what you’re insinuating. I would have quit long ago it it wasn’t for that first lesson I had with you.
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patdublc
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich/Doug/Mike - great stuff here. This is what a forum should be about. I've played a couple of gigs with Doug and I've been to a couple of Mike's gigs in NY when I was hanging out with Kiku and David. And, I'm familiar with Rich through many years of interaction. What I'm trying to say is - in some way, I feel like I know each of you a little bit. And that makes the collaboration here even better.
Doug labeled me as a IIIB several years ago and I planned to follow up with him for instruction. Then, I never did. So this whole conversation is motivating me to call him and get some guidance. The last I knew he was living in Maryland a couple of hours from where I live. Plus, if he ever goes to the beach, he probably drives right by my house. And, then there is the convenience of Zoom/Teams/Skype/etc. video calls.
Why haven't I done something about this before now? Thanx for the great discussion.
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're planning to be at Assateague this Friday if you want to meet me there.... Sort of kidding but maybe not
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doug Elliott wrote:
...
Yes, by definition that's the major difference between IIIA and IIIB. ...

--------------------------------
I've got a question about how mouthpiece pressure is distributed between the upper and lower lips for IIIA and IIIB players.

For a range of notes - e.g. high / medium / low pitches, is there significant difference in the percentage of rim pressure between the upper and lower lips.
e..g
IIIA high pitches xx% upper, yy% lower
IIIB high pitches XX% upper, YY% lower

I have the 'idea' that the techniques used to distribute the rim pressure are different for IIIA compared to IIIB , but is the percentage (and maybe the amount) of pressure inherently different?
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Doug Elliott wrote:
...
Yes, by definition that's the major difference between IIIA and IIIB. ...

--------------------------------
I've got a question about how mouthpiece pressure is distributed between the upper and lower lips for IIIA and IIIB players.

For a range of notes - e.g. high / medium / low pitches, is there significant difference in the percentage of rim pressure between the upper and lower lips.
e..g
IIIA high pitches xx% upper, yy% lower
IIIB high pitches XX% upper, YY% lower

I have the 'idea' that the techniques used to distribute the rim pressure are different for IIIA compared to IIIB , but is the percentage (and maybe the amount) of pressure inherently different?


In both cases - pivot classification 1 (IIIA) and classification 2 (IIIB) (while ascending) Doc writes: "keep more weight on your lower lip WITHOUT RECEDING YOUR JAW WHILE SO DOING, and travel as high into the range as possible in this manner. Save the upper lip weight as your "trump card" for the production of the extreme upper register.

In pivot classification 2 he also adds "The importance of this point cannot be over-emphasised."

There's no concept like a weight % taught, nor analysed as you ask, not to my knowledge. The concept of "neutralizing pressure" in conjunction with the above information takes care of a performer of either type, and whether or not they deviate in pressure distribution (which all performers will) is fairly immaterial.

Mike
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In general it's always a good idea to TRY to use less pressure on top just because it has a tendency to swell from using pressure.

BUT - a reasonable amount of pressure is not a bad thing IF you have the muscle mass to back it up AND your mechanics agree with your actual correct embouchure type. Type switching, with too much pressure (which happens because you're type switching) is not a good combination and only leads to injury, or inconsistency at best.
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OndraJ
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Praise to Rich, Doug.
All of them typed me as a IIIA in the first second.
The most I got out of the lessons with Rich, who guided me through the orientation and analysis. The ten test drills are great exercises and the specific exercises set me up well.

In a lesson with Doug I got a few tweaks that take me ahead further.

Keep on the good work.
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patdublc
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick update - Doug and I are meeting today. I hope I don't drive him insane with my endless chop anomalies. But, I guess he's probably seen it all before. At least I have nice horns. Lol.

But, seriously, if you're struggling to play or if you've ever just wondered "could there be an easier way to play", stop thinking about it and contact an expert. I literally planned to meet with Doug 5 years ago and never got around to it until this particular thread popped up. Silly me.

Who knows what he fill find in our first session today? But, if there is any educational benefit to this forum, Doug has my permission to share freely so that others can be aware.

By day, I'm a corporate data governance manager for a synthetic fiber company so I don't earn my living through music. But, I've played a wide array of styles and performances over the years. I've played the picc literature, theater pits, big band lead, and pretty much anything you can think of except small group jazz. I've played some very tough shows like "All Shook Up" that have written double C's. It was very hard for me. It took a tremendous amount of preparation to be able to play that book. It sure would be nice if it were a little easier.

And that is the crux of my issues - I have the endurance and range to play pretty much whatever I want to play BUT I have to work very hard to do it. If only it could be a little easier.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bach_again wrote:

In both cases - pivot classification 1 (IIIA) and classification 2 (IIIB) (while ascending) Doc writes: ...

-------------------------------------
Mike, thank you for that information.

Doug Elliot, thank you for your comments.
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deesson
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Questions for Rich and Doug.

OndraJ wrote:

Quote:
Praise to Rich, Doug.
All of them typed me as a IIIA in the first second.


I'm assuming this a recent event, so I hope you remember.

What made this typing so obvious?
What are some of the facial differences between the A and B?
Can you determine what type someone is without actually seeing them play?
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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With most players I immediately see their type, when I see them play. The testing I do is just to confirm details.


You can never be sure by facial characteristics alone. It's how it all goes together on an instrument.
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What are some of the facial differences between the A and B?
Can you determine what type someone is without actually seeing them play?


My dissertation was designed to look specifically at those questions. The results ended up showing what Doug said:

Quote:
You can never be sure by facial characteristics alone. It's how it all goes together on an instrument.


I also learned while doing that study that's it's quite easy to fool yourself into thinking that you can tell just by looking at someone.

Recently I was reminded to not make assumptions based on facial anatomy. I was working with a student for the first time who has an underbite. We did experiment a bit to see if he could play as a IV, but he is clearly a IIIA, and a very strong one at that. There's just too many anatomical factors that come into play to make hard and fast assumptions about a player's anatomy and the relation to embouchure type. The best way to determine a player's embouchure type is on the horn.

Dave
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, I have to say, this typeswitching thing is completely foreign to me. I had no idea it was as common as it apparently is.

I've always been a IV. When I started developing my high register in high school, my placement slipped way down. It was scary and strange, but I just went with it. My sound got a little thinner when this happened too, which bothered me. For a while, I thought maybe I had been a IIIB and slipped down to IV or IVA, and needed to fix it. Fortunately, I had a picture of myself playing in 6th grade, and showed it to Chris LaBarbera. Chris was able to confirm that I was a IV even then, and so the new, lower placement apparently wasn't anything to worry about.

Being a IV can be tough, because it is very different from IIIB or IIIA, which is what most players are (one of the two). However, studying with Rich, Chris and of course Dave Sheetz taught me a very important lesson: that no matter what your type is, many of the same principles of correct brass playing apply. This allowed me to benefit very well from Reinhardt study, despite the playing differences from my instructors. However, as you get into more advanced issues, it can require more specialized knowledge, as we have witnessed in Rich's case here.

Like the great piano teacher Dorothy Taubman (a piano equivalent of Reinhardt) said, "A great teacher doesn't wait for things to happen, they make things happen!" So you find those people. And for me, in my mid 20s, the Reinhardt guys were/are those people. Then stick with that person/those people and see what you can learn. Then, when you're ready (and it will take years), become your own best teacher, but sometimes you just need a little nugget of knowledge from someone else, so keep an open mind to the possibility of continued study. Two heads are better than one. But at that point you may not need regular lessons anymore, just occasional ones.

At some point even if you've reached this point, I think we are all at some point or another "licked" and can't help ourselves anymore, and that's where one must make a call to someone who can. And it doesn't matter who they are. All that matters is if they can help you with that one issue you're having! If they can, you're golden!

My two cents,

Josh
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OndraJ
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OndraJ wrote:

Quote:
Praise to Rich, Doug.
All of them typed me as a IIIA in the first second.


Let me correct this:
Both of them typed me as a IIIA in the first minute, and proofed this by let me doing some exercises.

While reading the posts above, I (and maybe many others) ask myself:
was I typed right? Do I the wright things?

When I am doubtful I try the this:
I have a leadpipe without the rest of the trumpet.
This resonats at about an F in the stuff and at an G above the stuff.
Now I hold it with one hand behind the mouthpiece and the other hand at the end. So I can push, rotate, turn, twist, tilt,.... in every possible direction.
The jump of more than an octave without notes in between tells the truth.

What do you think about it?
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to singing Doug's praises . . . I had a five-hour gig tonight, outdoors, and it got cold by the fourth set. Fifth set was too cold, man, and fortunately I've been learning EVI for a little over a year now, and the bandleader likes the way that sounds, so I hardly played any trumpet the last two sets.

But the good news is that while playing the first three sets, my endurance and ability to play and not totally suck has definitely improved in the last three weeks.

I called Doug on the way to the gig to ask about a concern or two and he was great in giving me a few things to remember and think about to get me through. That was a big help, too.

Doug had previously warned me that my chops might want to go back to my IIIB "playing groove" and I made a concerted effort to avoid that, which was also a big help in getting through.

Anyway, Mike Sailors told me it was a good six months after his IIIA conversion experience with Doug that it finally seemed automatic and natural. I'm not in a hurry to get any older any faster, but it's reassuring to know that continued vigilance will pay off, so I'm grateful for the guidance that I've gotten from Doug and the support from this group of TH members.
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Progress report here . . . both on Saturday and again today, after playing 3+ hour gigs on Friday and Sunday, my "day after" practicing actually went pretty well and was not accompanied by the soreness, stiffness or maybe even bruising that I had experienced in years past.

This IIIA thing, although far from seeming "normal" or "automatic" . . . it sure is helping with lessening the pain of playing that had become normal for me.

Again, I urge anybody who has any suspicions that maybe they're playing on a less than efficient embouchure contact Doug Elliott. Trust me, he's not paying me to say this, but the results I've experienced since September 30th are nothing short of life-changing and I would hope that there are some people out there smart enough to realize that they might be doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. (Einstein had a word for that.)

Also, a special thanks to Dave Wilken for taking a chance and hiring me to play with his band last night on these fledgling IIIA chops. Hopefully I didn't disgrace his organization too badly, but it was definitely a great opportunity for me to road test this "rookie" embouchure.

😉

Thanks, guys!
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