View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
John_t_nz Regular Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2020 Posts: 25
|
Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:55 am Post subject: How long it took for your DT to be faster than ST? |
|
|
Started working on double tonguing recently… it is about half speed of my single tonguing at the moment…
Curious how long it took for your double tonguing to catchup on your single tonguing when you started on this journey? _________________ Newbie |
|
Back to top |
|
|
zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2327 Location: Beavercreek, OH
|
Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
How long as a child did it take for you to speak with clear words? Just pointing out that it doesn't happen over night.
Developing a little speed shouldn't take too long, weeks / months. But mastering rhytmically accurate and clear attacks could take a long time, and takes, like everything else, regular upkeep.
Work slowly.. super slow, both T's and K's. Like quarter notes at 50 beats per minute, then eights, then sixteenths. Not only striving for clear equal attacks but absolute rhythmical accuracy.
Include a bit of multiple tonguing in your daily routine.. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9014 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
And don't tense up when you concentrate on your tongue. Keep your tongue relaxed.
To that end, may I suggest starting with a "Guh" sound for "Kah"?
I.e. Duh, Guh, Duh, Guh instead of Tah, Kah, Tah, Kah. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
|
Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
Practice k tonguing - the "kuh" part of double tonguing. Use the K instead of the T on various exercises, scales. Try to make it as clean as the T. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
|
Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Without proper guidance, I worked literally for years. With a great teacher, a week. _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
John_t_nz Regular Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2020 Posts: 25
|
Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Andy Del wrote: | Without proper guidance, I worked literally for years. With a great teacher, a week. |
Thanks for everyone’s responses, and thank you for sharing personal experiences and that quantifiable statements that I was looking for from the group.
From what I have read, and on YouTube, I believe I need to be patient and just keep working on both single tonguing and double tonguing on a daily basis. At the moment my ST is about 100bps (correction:bpm), and DT is about 60bps (correction:bpm). For amateur like myself, I expect my single tonguing speed will max out somewhere around 110-120bps (correction:bpm)? and then hopefully double tonguing speed will start to catch up and hopefully pass it! _________________ Newbie
Last edited by John_t_nz on Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1772
|
Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
John_t_nz wrote: | Andy Del wrote: | Without proper guidance, I worked literally for years. With a great teacher, a week. |
Thanks for everyone’s responses, and thank you for sharing personal experiences and that quantifiable statements that I was looking for from the group.
From what I have read, and on YouTube, I believe I need to be patient and just keep working on both single tonguing and double tonguing on a daily basis. At the moment my ST is about 100bps, and DT is about 60bps. For amateur like myself, I expect my single tonguing speed will max out somewhere around 110-120bps? and then hopefully double tonguing speed will start to catch up and hopefully pass it! |
Right. Basically you want to get efficient at single tonguing which will inform your double tongue.
Efficiency is quality and ease. So, make sure you are recording yourself on your practice so you can listen back go see if it is exactly what you want.
For ease, you can work on the Gekker 1 minute drill. Go at about 80 BPM and tongue legato for 1 minute straight, aiming for quality and ease. If it is too fast, slow it down to 76. Then do that for a week. Take a rest day. Bump it up 4-8 and do that for a week, etc. until you hit 120. This is just one exercise you can incorporate into the mix that is very effective. Listen to your body and rest as needed.
For the level of mastery that I was going for, it took me about 4 years with 20-30 minutes dedicated to multiple tonguing a day. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
John_t_nz Regular Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2020 Posts: 25
|
Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
Quote: | Right. Basically you want to get efficient at single tonguing which will inform your double tongue.
Efficiency is quality and ease. So, make sure you are recording yourself on your practice so you can listen back go see if it is exactly what you want.
For ease, you can work on the Gekker 1 minute drill. Go at about 80 BPM and tongue legato for 1 minute straight, aiming for quality and ease. If it is too fast, slow it down to 76. Then do that for a week. Take a rest day. Bump it up 4-8 and do that for a week, etc. until you hit 120. This is just one exercise you can incorporate into the mix that is very effective. Listen to your body and rest as needed.
For the level of mastery that I was going for, it took me about 4 years with 20-30 minutes dedicated to multiple tonguing a day. |
That is great advice and information. Thank you! _________________ Newbie |
|
Back to top |
|
|
cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
|
Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
John_t_nz wrote: | Andy Del wrote: | Without proper guidance, I worked literally for years. With a great teacher, a week. |
Thanks for everyone’s responses, and thank you for sharing personal experiences and that quantifiable statements that I was looking for from the group.
From what I have read, and on YouTube, I believe I need to be patient and just keep working on both single tonguing and double tonguing on a daily basis. At the moment my ST is about 100bps, and DT is about 60bps. For amateur like myself, I expect my single tonguing speed will max out somewhere around 110-120bps? and then hopefully double tonguing speed will start to catch up and hopefully pass it! |
I think you mean bpm?
FWIW I made most all my progress with tonguing by playing the Clarke Technical Studies with every sort of tonguing model. I'd play the entire exercise with one type of tonguing and changing that style daily. After two weeks I'd go to the next study and rotate through the same tonguing models.
Tonguing Models
- slur all
- single-tongue all
- slur 2/tongue 2
- double-tongue all
- triple-tongue all (where it makes sense)
- k-tongue all
It's a grind but it gets the job done and it's totally worth it.
To repeat what a previous poster said, work on very subtle soft tonguing. Don't tongue hard, and don't stop the air/note with your tongue. Once you get your speed up then you can work on more aggressive tonguing as needed. And play the exercises as slow as you need to in order to execute them cleanly. You learn twice as fast playing slowly and half as fast trying to play too fast. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
|
Back to top |
|
|
John_t_nz Regular Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2020 Posts: 25
|
Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
cheiden wrote: |
I think you mean bpm?
FWIW I made most all my progress with tonguing by playing the Clarke Technical Studies with every sort of tonguing model. I'd play the entire exercise with one type of tonguing and changing that style daily. After two weeks I'd go to the next study and rotate through the same tonguing models.
Tonguing Models
- slur all
- single-tongue all
- slur 2/tongue 2
- double-tongue all
- triple-tongue all (where it makes sense)
- k-tongue all
It's a grind but it gets the job done and it's totally worth it.
To repeat what a previous poster said, work on very subtle soft tonguing. Don't tongue hard, and don't stop the air/note with your tongue. Once you get your speed up then you can work on more aggressive tonguing as needed. And play the exercises as slow as you need to in order to execute them cleanly. You learn twice as fast playing slowly and half as fast trying to play too fast. |
Thanks! Yes, I meant BPM! (Correction made in original post).
Thanks for sharing what you do to work on your multiple tonguing! The information is very valuable and appreciated. I have started using Clarke’s second study with suggested tonguing techniques in Clarke’s notes. I am sure with persistence, I will make progress in time! _________________ Newbie |
|
Back to top |
|
|
JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
|
Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Speed shouldn't take all that long once everything is in place, but control and evenness can take quite some time. I don't think I've ever really told a student to speed up their double-tonguing practice, but I've told them to slow way down for a few weeks or more.
Work slowly much longer than you think is necessary. There should be no difference in the sound of a T and a K. If you want to drive yourself mad, try various tonguing patterns on just the leadpipe (tuning slide removed, playing approximately an F where the note resonates the most) and make the T and K sound the same. You'll hear every bit of unevenness in your articulation. It is possible to make them sound identical. Usually, once it's clean and even on the leadpipe, it's much easier to do on the horn. Of course, don't go overboard with the leadpipe; it's just a tool to better hear what's happening.
Once the tongue is truly even, then speeding it up is just a little bit of focused time with the metronome. Record yourself practicing both single and double tonguing moderately slow -- can you hear a difference? If so, I wouldn't worry so much about speed yet. Slow down and get control of each syllable.
Be creative with your practice to keep the slowness interesting. Make up awkward tonguing patterns to put the Ts and Ks in uncomfortable places. Impose awkward accent patterns to give you control over the expressiveness of articulations without regard for whether the tongue is a T or a K. Make it frustrating enough that you have to be focused and work slowly.
Once your double tongue is "fast," you'll still probably need to spend a good bit of your multiple tonguing work going slowly to iron out the unevenness that wants to creep in. Obviously, at some point, you need to speed things up, but progress is measured in control of a beautiful articulation rather than a metronome marking. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5677 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
|
Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have a bit of a funny story related to the subject of multiple tonguing.
A few years back there was a big push to recruit some fresh blood into the National Guard band, so a friend of mine and I went to a college to try to pitch to the kids in the trumpet studio there. My friend had gotten his masters there (he did his undergrad at Peabody - he's an excellent player) and we coordinated this with the high brass instructor.
We're doing a sort of clinic-like thing, playing alongside of some of these students, and we get to a passage that has some multiple tonguing in it. The kid I'm standing next to says to me something to the effect that he's just not very good at multiple tonguing.
So I say to him - "hey - do you want to know a secret that will really help your multiple tonguing?" At this point he's all ears and I'm drawing him in hook, line and sinker. He says, "sure!"
I said, "there is no real secret - the truth is you just have to work on it a lot - give it some solid, focused work every single day, and keep pushing through, even though you may not like how it sounds. The more you work on it, the more it will clean up and the better you'll get at it."
To the OP I'll suggest the same thing- there's no tip or trick - you'll have to work to refine it on your own. K-tonguing helps some, but for me, I found that just drilling it and really focusing on it to refine and find the efficiency is what did it. Which reminds me, I could stand to do some work to bring it back in to focus again - it's one of those things that if you don't use it, you'll lose it. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
|
Back to top |
|
|
John_t_nz Regular Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2020 Posts: 25
|
Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
trickg wrote: |
To the OP I'll suggest the same thing- there's no tip or trick - you'll have to work to refine it on your own. K-tonguing helps some, but for me, I found that just drilling it and really focusing on it to refine and find the efficiency is what did it. Which reminds me, I could stand to do some work to bring it back in to focus again - it's one of those things that if you don't use it, you'll lose it. |
Thanks! What I have found is there are really no shortcuts about getting better on trumpet playing… only persistent hard work… and getting quality instructions.. _________________ Newbie |
|
Back to top |
|
|
trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5677 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
|
Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
John_t_nz wrote: | trickg wrote: |
To the OP I'll suggest the same thing- there's no tip or trick - you'll have to work to refine it on your own. K-tonguing helps some, but for me, I found that just drilling it and really focusing on it to refine and find the efficiency is what did it. Which reminds me, I could stand to do some work to bring it back in to focus again - it's one of those things that if you don't use it, you'll lose it. |
Thanks! What I have found is there are really no shortcuts about getting better on trumpet playing… only persistent hard work… and getting quality instructions.. |
I found that drilling my multiple tonguing was actually very beneficial for my playing in other ways. In my experience (YMMV) you can't get good, clean, fast and crisp multiple tonguing if your air isn't moving well, nor can you get good clean and crisp multiple tonguing if your chops aren't focused. The end result is that the more I worked on it, the more efficient my playing got overall because it forced a change to both my focus and airflow. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
|
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Andy Del wrote: | Without proper guidance, I worked literally for years. With a great teacher, a week. |
_________________ Bill Bergren |
|
Back to top |
|
|
John_t_nz Regular Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2020 Posts: 25
|
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
trickg wrote: |
I found that drilling my multiple tonguing was actually very beneficial for my playing in other ways. In my experience (YMMV) you can't get good, clean, fast and crisp multiple tonguing if your air isn't moving well, nor can you get good clean and crisp multiple tonguing if your chops aren't focused. The end result is that the more I worked on it, the more efficient my playing got overall because it forced a change to both my focus and airflow. |
Just sharing what I am reading just now on Claude Gordon’s notes on tonguing at Arban’s p153:
“Tee-tee-kee” is the better syllable. “Tu-Tu-ku” tends to pull the sound down and make it dull. The trumpet and cornet articulations are the same as the flute. In the flute method by Taffanel and Gaubert on p96-108, notice that the “tee” and “knee” are always used (not “Tu” and “ku”). This misunderstanding in the brass methods has caused many problems for the brass student. The flute triple tonguing articulations was generally “tee-kee-tee, kee-tee-kee.” Saint-Jacobean in his method follows more the flute pattern in detail and uses both articulations, (tee-kee-tee, kee-tee-kee and tee-kee-tee, tee-kee-tee. Also, tee-tee-kee, tee-tee-kee as well as others). _________________ Newbie |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
|
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If you can already double tongue a bit, I think practicing fast and crisp single tongue is even more valuable for improving both your single tongue and your multiple articulations. Take some songs like "La Vida es un carnaval" by Celia Cruz, or the sixteenth notes in Haydn movement 1, or Uptown Funk and really nail it single tongue with full tone and accuracy. Then, try some repertoire that requires double tongue. Find some musical phrases that require it, like "Concert Etude" Goedicke or Arutunian and drill them down every day. I personally don't believe non-musical exercises are as beneficial as having actual musical examples that you are working with when it comes to articulation. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|