• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Buying a new Bach Strad


Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
HoosierBrass
Regular Member


Joined: 12 Sep 2021
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:39 pm    Post subject: Buying a new Bach Strad Reply with quote

As I go along with my son to purchase a new Bach Strad I wanted to get some opinions on what all to be aware of as we try each horn. He has it narrowed down to a Bach Strad but will be testing out some different models (180 with 43 bell, 37 bell, LR, and maybe a couple 190 models are on the list to try). I have not purchased a horn in probably 20+ years so I wanted to get an idea of some of the notorious things or idiosyncrasies to maybe be aware of with new Strads as he checks out the various horns. He of course plans to take his own mouthpiece and he has some "testing" passages in mind to give the horn a work out, but I would appreciate any feedback that you may have to allow us a good way to evaluate these horns that maybe wouldn't be obvious at first thought. Thanks for your help/insight!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trickg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

37 or 43 are both going to be fine. So is standard or reverse leadpipe. Get him the one he believes plays the best for him. IMO you don't need to get a 190. The 180 was the standard pro horn for decades, but if he plays a 190 and thinks it's better, get that one. Don't over think it.

When my son was aspiring as a guitar player, we went one day to finally try out his "grail" guitar - a Gibson SG. For grins I thought, hey, why not try a Les Paul as an A/B, just to see what's what.

At that point my son immediately shifted gears - that Les Paul was outstanding - it just had a growl to the tone that the SG didn't have. That one was a Les Paul Standard - running $2200 at the time - so I figured we'd try to find a Les Paul Studio with the same sound. Supposedly they were the same in terms of what gave the guitar its sound - the electronics and wood - but were roughly half the cost. Nope. None of them sounded anywhere as good.

We bought that Les Paul Standard, and at this point, I'm glad we did - it's an outstanding guitar and it led him to pursue music well beyond his high school years. He wound up in a signed indie band, toured the country and Canada about 7 or 8 times...

That Les Paul was the catalyst that made the difference IMO.

But this isn't about my son - it's about yours. It's an investment - the 180 will probably be fine, and either the 37 or 43 will probably be fine, but if the 190 is the one where he's like, "whoa! this is the one!" then get that one. It's hard to put a price on inspiration and motivation when it comes to our kids.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TrumpetMD
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 2410
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great advice by Patrick (trickg)!

Mike
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JeffM729
Veteran Member


Joined: 27 Dec 2004
Posts: 441
Location: Parrish, FL

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have faith your son will know which trumpet he wants to take home.

One will stand out.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
chef8489
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 850
Location: Johnson City Tn

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Add a 72 and 72 reverse to the list to try. Let him try the horns and buy the one he likes the most.
_________________
Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dayton
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Mar 2013
Posts: 1990
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you go to the "Bach Brass" page on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/bachbrass
you'll see a series of "Artist Select Program" videos of Mark Hughes, Rashawn Ross, and Karl Sievers testing Bach Strads. You might find those videos useful as those great artists discuss what they are listening for, what they play to get a good sense of the qualities of the horn, etc.

Good luck to you and your son!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
improver
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 1453

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd buy the 37 190 series if I were getting a Bach. From what I understand pros are flocking to them. The new Bachs are maybe the best Bachs ever made. Jeremy Davenport just told me he got a 190 37 and really like it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
zaferis
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 2309
Location: Beavercreek, OH

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

improver wrote:
I'd buy the 37 190 series if I were getting a Bach. From what I understand pros are flocking to them. The new Bachs are maybe the best Bachs ever made. Jeremy Davenport just told me he got a 190 37 and really like it.


This!

Over the years I've played quite a number of different 37's (my favorite of the bells) On a lark I picked up a 19037 (50% anniversary edition), I haven't put it down since. Without going into why and the process / components that make this model distinct.. they are throwbacks to the process and conctruction techniques that made the 18037 the gold standard for generations.
Since I bought mine, I've had the chance to visit the Bach factory, see some built and play several.. they are incredibly consistent. I have not played one that I wouldn't buy and love.
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
improver
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 1453

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you actually give us your insight on process components that make the 190 37 what it is. We would all benefit.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dave_3
Regular Member


Joined: 23 Nov 2020
Posts: 64
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think "try a bunch and see what you like" is probably the best advice, but I have a 50th anniversary, 190S37, and it sounds great, to me. No regrets on that purchase.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trickg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
improver wrote:
I'd buy the 37 190 series if I were getting a Bach. From what I understand pros are flocking to them. The new Bachs are maybe the best Bachs ever made. Jeremy Davenport just told me he got a 190 37 and really like it.


This!

Over the years I've played quite a number of different 37's (my favorite of the bells) On a lark I picked up a 19037 (50% anniversary edition), I haven't put it down since. Without going into why and the process / components that make this model distinct.. they are throwbacks to the process and conctruction techniques that made the 18037 the gold standard for generations.
Since I bought mine, I've had the chance to visit the Bach factory, see some built and play several.. they are incredibly consistent. I have not played one that I wouldn't buy and love.

I really hope that's the case. A couple of years back when I was helping a friend of mine pick out a new Bb, none of the Bachs we played stood up next to the horn he eventually ended up getting - a Yamaha Xeno Chicago. I didn't like any of them.

I think any of us who have been around for a while remember the days where the standard answer for what horn to get was, "Bach, but make sure you play a bunch of them to find a good one."
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
improver
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 1453

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

" none of the Bachs we played stood up" exactly how Bachs did you play? The new ones I've played are remarkably consistent. Imho these are the best Bachs ever made.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
MrOlds
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Apr 2003
Posts: 720
Location: California

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s like Harry Potter. Sometimes the horn chooses the player.

Play as many as you want. One or two will stand out. Usually one will just fit.

Buy that one and enjoy it for decades.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
HoosierBrass
Regular Member


Joined: 12 Sep 2021
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the replies and info so. I know he plans to play the various 180 and 190 models. I have heard many mixed stories about the 50th anniversary horns. Some people felt they were great and some felt like it was crapshot on the quality control. Obviously with any instrument their will some variability, so I wanted to get more insight on things to really be aware of.

If there are Bach consistency issues within the various models are they usually valve issues? slide issues? sound concerns? assembly? What are the more common reasons that a player would have a "dud" of a horn versus another in the exact same model?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trickg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HoosierBrass wrote:
Some people felt they were great and some felt like it was crapshot on the quality control. Obviously with any instrument their will some variability, so I wanted to get more insight on things to really be aware of.

Touching back on my son and his Les Paul Standard, they've really been hit or miss in recent years - mostly miss from my perspective.

We were in Guitar Center one day and saw an absolutely gorgeous Les Paul standard on the used rack, so my son pulled it down and plugged it in. Blah.
Nothing we tried got that guitar to sound good - we plugged it into several different amps and even switched cables. It was an absolute dud, and no small wonder it was sitting on the used rack. Could it have been fixed? Maybe, but should you have to immediately turn around and try to fix something that should be good-to-go from the start? By contrast, we've A/B'd my son's Les Paul against a number of other Les Pauls, and it's either flat out better, or it holds its own against all of them.

Your son should know within a few minutes of picking up "the" trumpet whether or not it's a keeper. If it's a dud, it just won't feel good, and certain things won't pop when he tries to play them.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12647
Location: Gardena, Ca

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there are multiple categories of feedback you will get when inquiring about Bach trumpet quality.

There are those who simply never will get along with a Bach instrument. These people will say something similar to trickg’s post, “I didn’t like any of them”. (Patrick, I mean no disrespect. Your post just is a great example in this thread)

This is a perfectly acceptable opinion, but really doesn’t add any details to the discussion.

There are those who are good at trying out horns and can discern small things that mere mortals like me will never be able to identify. These individuals can give good details, but whether it will matter to your son, only he will know.

While I have only tried a handful of horns over my career, I did go on a safari for myself and another for my son. I didn’t run into any Bachs I found unacceptable. But there are others who have run into the legendary Bach quality issues that I have seen posted about on here over the years.

The ratio varies from only one in three is acceptable to one in twenty-five. I suspect the latter is mostly people who had a friend who knew someone who tried out new Bachs…

But I seldom see any details about what was wrong.

Things I have seen are:
Shape of the curve of the tuning slide radius.
Solder blobs inside the instrument.
The bell bow radius not being true to the original design. (I was once showed an original blueprint for the 229 by Ted Waggoner. Really cool.)
The bell bow tubing is squashed instead of round.
I was told by someone who worked at Bach that the tooling was worn and didn’t produce parts true to the design. (This was over twenty years ago)

But there many things that are not visible or easily measurable in the store that go into making an instrument that will inevitably vary from craftsman to craftsman, or even between one craftsman’s instruments. Like work hardening or annealing when producing the bell.

Sorry for the missive to any that made it here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Shawnino
Veteran Member


Joined: 27 Jun 2020
Posts: 255

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why would someone limit themselves to just Bach?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trickg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
I think there are multiple categories of feedback you will get when inquiring about Bach trumpet quality.

There are those who simply never will get along with a Bach instrument. These people will say something similar to trickg’s post, “I didn’t like any of them”. (Patrick, I mean no disrespect. Your post just is a great example in this thread)

This is a perfectly acceptable opinion, but really doesn’t add any details to the discussion.

That's not a fair assessment at all. I played a Bach Strad for almost 20 years - I got my sister's ML 37 when she graduated from high school in 1986 and stopped playing. That was my main axe until I started eating holes in the tubing. If I knew then what I know now it all could have been fixed, but I didn't, so I sold it and bought a large bore, 25 bell, hand-picked, in 1997. I played that horn until around 2006 when I got my Schilke B6.

I dabbled on a nice playing ML 37 a couple of years ago, but the 37 bell wasn't my cup of tea, so I sold it. I think maybe if it had been a 43 I'd have kept it.

At this point I'm playing a Shires Model B, which for all intents and purposes is a better Bach 43 - Shires even makes that claim, with the idea behind it of "there's no need to reinvent the wheel."

So again, not fair. At all. Just because I didn't like the last handful that I played doesn't mean that Bach can't make a decent horn, or that I won't ever like one. I've spent nearly half of 40 years on the horn playing a Strad.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12647
Location: Gardena, Ca

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
I think there are multiple categories of feedback you will get when inquiring about Bach trumpet quality.

There are those who simply never will get along with a Bach instrument. These people will say something similar to trickg’s post, “I didn’t like any of them”. (Patrick, I mean no disrespect. Your post just is a great example in this thread)

This is a perfectly acceptable opinion, but really doesn’t add any details to the discussion.

That's not a fair assessment at all. I played a Bach Strad for almost 20 years - I got my sister's ML 37 when she graduated from high school in 1986 and stopped playing. That was my main axe until I started eating holes in the tubing. If I knew then what I know now it all could have been fixed, but I didn't, so I sold it and bought a large bore, 25 bell, hand-picked, in 1997. I played that horn until around 2006 when I got my Schilke B6.

I dabbled on a nice playing ML 37 a couple of years ago, but the 37 bell wasn't my cup of tea, so I sold it. I think maybe if it had been a 43 I'd have kept it.

At this point I'm playing a Shires Model B, which for all intents and purposes is a better Bach 43 - Shires even makes that claim, with the idea behind it of "there's no need to reinvent the wheel."

So again, not fair. At all. Just because I didn't like the last handful that I played doesn't mean that Bach can't make a decent horn, or that I won't ever like one. I've spent nearly half of 40 years on the horn playing a Strad.

Patrick,

I am sorry, I did not mean to imply that you personally felt that way, hence my failed attempt to head off any offense. Your recent post was just similar to what someone who felt that way would post.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
cbtj51
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Nov 2015
Posts: 722
Location: SE US

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I went on my first new horn safari in 2014 after a very long dormant desire, I began with no particular brand or style in mind. After much research, test playing colleagues horns, visiting local stores and trying the limited selections, I finally got there. In 2016 I ended up with something that I never could have foreseen, A Bach New York 7 (LT180S77). Great horn, never looked back!

Keep an open mind and more importantly, a discerning ear and mindset. Your venture can be loads of fun as well as gaining much rich knowledge of what's out there. Take your time! Your son will know when he has found "the one".

Best wishes,

Mike
_________________
'71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group