• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

How long it took for your DT to be faster than ST?



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
John_t_nz
Regular Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2020
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:55 am    Post subject: How long it took for your DT to be faster than ST? Reply with quote

Started working on double tonguing recently… it is about half speed of my single tonguing at the moment…

Curious how long it took for your double tonguing to catchup on your single tonguing when you started on this journey?
_________________
Newbie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zaferis
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 2309
Location: Beavercreek, OH

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How long as a child did it take for you to speak with clear words? Just pointing out that it doesn't happen over night.

Developing a little speed shouldn't take too long, weeks / months. But mastering rhytmically accurate and clear attacks could take a long time, and takes, like everything else, regular upkeep.
Work slowly.. super slow, both T's and K's. Like quarter notes at 50 beats per minute, then eights, then sixteenths. Not only striving for clear equal attacks but absolute rhythmical accuracy.

Include a bit of multiple tonguing in your daily routine..
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 8965
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And don't tense up when you concentrate on your tongue. Keep your tongue relaxed.

To that end, may I suggest starting with a "Guh" sound for "Kah"?
I.e. Duh, Guh, Duh, Guh instead of Tah, Kah, Tah, Kah.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn


Last edited by kehaulani on Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:44 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Robert P
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 2578

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Practice k tonguing - the "kuh" part of double tonguing. Use the K instead of the T on various exercises, scales. Try to make it as clean as the T.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C

Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo

Chinese Flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andy Del
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2660
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without proper guidance, I worked literally for years. With a great teacher, a week.
_________________
so many horns, so few good notes...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
John_t_nz
Regular Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2020
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:
Without proper guidance, I worked literally for years. With a great teacher, a week.


Thanks for everyone’s responses, and thank you for sharing personal experiences and that quantifiable statements that I was looking for from the group.

From what I have read, and on YouTube, I believe I need to be patient and just keep working on both single tonguing and double tonguing on a daily basis. At the moment my ST is about 100bps (correction:bpm), and DT is about 60bps (correction:bpm). For amateur like myself, I expect my single tonguing speed will max out somewhere around 110-120bps (correction:bpm)? and then hopefully double tonguing speed will start to catch up and hopefully pass it!
_________________
Newbie


Last edited by John_t_nz on Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1730

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John_t_nz wrote:
Andy Del wrote:
Without proper guidance, I worked literally for years. With a great teacher, a week.


Thanks for everyone’s responses, and thank you for sharing personal experiences and that quantifiable statements that I was looking for from the group.

From what I have read, and on YouTube, I believe I need to be patient and just keep working on both single tonguing and double tonguing on a daily basis. At the moment my ST is about 100bps, and DT is about 60bps. For amateur like myself, I expect my single tonguing speed will max out somewhere around 110-120bps? and then hopefully double tonguing speed will start to catch up and hopefully pass it!


Right. Basically you want to get efficient at single tonguing which will inform your double tongue.

Efficiency is quality and ease. So, make sure you are recording yourself on your practice so you can listen back go see if it is exactly what you want.

For ease, you can work on the Gekker 1 minute drill. Go at about 80 BPM and tongue legato for 1 minute straight, aiming for quality and ease. If it is too fast, slow it down to 76. Then do that for a week. Take a rest day. Bump it up 4-8 and do that for a week, etc. until you hit 120. This is just one exercise you can incorporate into the mix that is very effective. Listen to your body and rest as needed.

For the level of mastery that I was going for, it took me about 4 years with 20-30 minutes dedicated to multiple tonguing a day.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John_t_nz
Regular Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2020
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Right. Basically you want to get efficient at single tonguing which will inform your double tongue.

Efficiency is quality and ease. So, make sure you are recording yourself on your practice so you can listen back go see if it is exactly what you want.

For ease, you can work on the Gekker 1 minute drill. Go at about 80 BPM and tongue legato for 1 minute straight, aiming for quality and ease. If it is too fast, slow it down to 76. Then do that for a week. Take a rest day. Bump it up 4-8 and do that for a week, etc. until you hit 120. This is just one exercise you can incorporate into the mix that is very effective. Listen to your body and rest as needed.

For the level of mastery that I was going for, it took me about 4 years with 20-30 minutes dedicated to multiple tonguing a day.


That is great advice and information. Thank you!
_________________
Newbie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cheiden
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8910
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John_t_nz wrote:
Andy Del wrote:
Without proper guidance, I worked literally for years. With a great teacher, a week.


Thanks for everyone’s responses, and thank you for sharing personal experiences and that quantifiable statements that I was looking for from the group.

From what I have read, and on YouTube, I believe I need to be patient and just keep working on both single tonguing and double tonguing on a daily basis. At the moment my ST is about 100bps, and DT is about 60bps. For amateur like myself, I expect my single tonguing speed will max out somewhere around 110-120bps? and then hopefully double tonguing speed will start to catch up and hopefully pass it!

I think you mean bpm?

FWIW I made most all my progress with tonguing by playing the Clarke Technical Studies with every sort of tonguing model. I'd play the entire exercise with one type of tonguing and changing that style daily. After two weeks I'd go to the next study and rotate through the same tonguing models.

Tonguing Models
- slur all
- single-tongue all
- slur 2/tongue 2
- double-tongue all
- triple-tongue all (where it makes sense)
- k-tongue all

It's a grind but it gets the job done and it's totally worth it.

To repeat what a previous poster said, work on very subtle soft tonguing. Don't tongue hard, and don't stop the air/note with your tongue. Once you get your speed up then you can work on more aggressive tonguing as needed. And play the exercises as slow as you need to in order to execute them cleanly. You learn twice as fast playing slowly and half as fast trying to play too fast.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John_t_nz
Regular Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2020
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:

I think you mean bpm?

FWIW I made most all my progress with tonguing by playing the Clarke Technical Studies with every sort of tonguing model. I'd play the entire exercise with one type of tonguing and changing that style daily. After two weeks I'd go to the next study and rotate through the same tonguing models.

Tonguing Models
- slur all
- single-tongue all
- slur 2/tongue 2
- double-tongue all
- triple-tongue all (where it makes sense)
- k-tongue all

It's a grind but it gets the job done and it's totally worth it.

To repeat what a previous poster said, work on very subtle soft tonguing. Don't tongue hard, and don't stop the air/note with your tongue. Once you get your speed up then you can work on more aggressive tonguing as needed. And play the exercises as slow as you need to in order to execute them cleanly. You learn twice as fast playing slowly and half as fast trying to play too fast.


Thanks! Yes, I meant BPM! (Correction made in original post).

Thanks for sharing what you do to work on your multiple tonguing! The information is very valuable and appreciated. I have started using Clarke’s second study with suggested tonguing techniques in Clarke’s notes. I am sure with persistence, I will make progress in time!
_________________
Newbie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JoseLindE4
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 791

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speed shouldn't take all that long once everything is in place, but control and evenness can take quite some time. I don't think I've ever really told a student to speed up their double-tonguing practice, but I've told them to slow way down for a few weeks or more.

Work slowly much longer than you think is necessary. There should be no difference in the sound of a T and a K. If you want to drive yourself mad, try various tonguing patterns on just the leadpipe (tuning slide removed, playing approximately an F where the note resonates the most) and make the T and K sound the same. You'll hear every bit of unevenness in your articulation. It is possible to make them sound identical. Usually, once it's clean and even on the leadpipe, it's much easier to do on the horn. Of course, don't go overboard with the leadpipe; it's just a tool to better hear what's happening.

Once the tongue is truly even, then speeding it up is just a little bit of focused time with the metronome. Record yourself practicing both single and double tonguing moderately slow -- can you hear a difference? If so, I wouldn't worry so much about speed yet. Slow down and get control of each syllable.

Be creative with your practice to keep the slowness interesting. Make up awkward tonguing patterns to put the Ts and Ks in uncomfortable places. Impose awkward accent patterns to give you control over the expressiveness of articulations without regard for whether the tongue is a T or a K. Make it frustrating enough that you have to be focused and work slowly.

Once your double tongue is "fast," you'll still probably need to spend a good bit of your multiple tonguing work going slowly to iron out the unevenness that wants to creep in. Obviously, at some point, you need to speed things up, but progress is measured in control of a beautiful articulation rather than a metronome marking.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
trickg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland

PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a bit of a funny story related to the subject of multiple tonguing.

A few years back there was a big push to recruit some fresh blood into the National Guard band, so a friend of mine and I went to a college to try to pitch to the kids in the trumpet studio there. My friend had gotten his masters there (he did his undergrad at Peabody - he's an excellent player) and we coordinated this with the high brass instructor.

We're doing a sort of clinic-like thing, playing alongside of some of these students, and we get to a passage that has some multiple tonguing in it. The kid I'm standing next to says to me something to the effect that he's just not very good at multiple tonguing.

So I say to him - "hey - do you want to know a secret that will really help your multiple tonguing?" At this point he's all ears and I'm drawing him in hook, line and sinker. He says, "sure!"

I said, "there is no real secret - the truth is you just have to work on it a lot - give it some solid, focused work every single day, and keep pushing through, even though you may not like how it sounds. The more you work on it, the more it will clean up and the better you'll get at it."

To the OP I'll suggest the same thing- there's no tip or trick - you'll have to work to refine it on your own. K-tonguing helps some, but for me, I found that just drilling it and really focusing on it to refine and find the efficiency is what did it. Which reminds me, I could stand to do some work to bring it back in to focus again - it's one of those things that if you don't use it, you'll lose it.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John_t_nz
Regular Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2020
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:

To the OP I'll suggest the same thing- there's no tip or trick - you'll have to work to refine it on your own. K-tonguing helps some, but for me, I found that just drilling it and really focusing on it to refine and find the efficiency is what did it. Which reminds me, I could stand to do some work to bring it back in to focus again - it's one of those things that if you don't use it, you'll lose it.


Thanks! What I have found is there are really no shortcuts about getting better on trumpet playing… only persistent hard work… and getting quality instructions..
_________________
Newbie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trickg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John_t_nz wrote:
trickg wrote:

To the OP I'll suggest the same thing- there's no tip or trick - you'll have to work to refine it on your own. K-tonguing helps some, but for me, I found that just drilling it and really focusing on it to refine and find the efficiency is what did it. Which reminds me, I could stand to do some work to bring it back in to focus again - it's one of those things that if you don't use it, you'll lose it.


Thanks! What I have found is there are really no shortcuts about getting better on trumpet playing… only persistent hard work… and getting quality instructions..

I found that drilling my multiple tonguing was actually very beneficial for my playing in other ways. In my experience (YMMV) you can't get good, clean, fast and crisp multiple tonguing if your air isn't moving well, nor can you get good clean and crisp multiple tonguing if your chops aren't focused. The end result is that the more I worked on it, the more efficient my playing got overall because it forced a change to both my focus and airflow.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Billy B
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 6126
Location: Des Moines

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:
Without proper guidance, I worked literally for years. With a great teacher, a week.

_________________
Bill Bergren
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
John_t_nz
Regular Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2020
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:

I found that drilling my multiple tonguing was actually very beneficial for my playing in other ways. In my experience (YMMV) you can't get good, clean, fast and crisp multiple tonguing if your air isn't moving well, nor can you get good clean and crisp multiple tonguing if your chops aren't focused. The end result is that the more I worked on it, the more efficient my playing got overall because it forced a change to both my focus and airflow.


Just sharing what I am reading just now on Claude Gordon’s notes on tonguing at Arban’s p153:
“Tee-tee-kee” is the better syllable. “Tu-Tu-ku” tends to pull the sound down and make it dull. The trumpet and cornet articulations are the same as the flute. In the flute method by Taffanel and Gaubert on p96-108, notice that the “tee” and “knee” are always used (not “Tu” and “ku”). This misunderstanding in the brass methods has caused many problems for the brass student. The flute triple tonguing articulations was generally “tee-kee-tee, kee-tee-kee.” Saint-Jacobean in his method follows more the flute pattern in detail and uses both articulations, (tee-kee-tee, kee-tee-kee and tee-kee-tee, tee-kee-tee. Also, tee-tee-kee, tee-tee-kee as well as others).
_________________
Newbie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jaw04
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 897
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can already double tongue a bit, I think practicing fast and crisp single tongue is even more valuable for improving both your single tongue and your multiple articulations. Take some songs like "La Vida es un carnaval" by Celia Cruz, or the sixteenth notes in Haydn movement 1, or Uptown Funk and really nail it single tongue with full tone and accuracy. Then, try some repertoire that requires double tongue. Find some musical phrases that require it, like "Concert Etude" Goedicke or Arutunian and drill them down every day. I personally don't believe non-musical exercises are as beneficial as having actual musical examples that you are working with when it comes to articulation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group