• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Opinions on Best of the Pro Olds Trumpets ?


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2426

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Abraxas wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Olds models: https://www.trumpet-history.com/Olds%20Trumpet%20Models.pdf


I've seen this before and was talking to my repair man at our local shop about this contraption on the 3rd slide of my Standard. It says, on that linking doc: "Significant Characteristics: Bb/A quick change by way of the under-mounted stop-rod on the tuning slide" to which my repair man says balderdash ... impossible for a single slide on the third to do a complete pitch change. At the risk of changing the subject somewhat, anyone know anything about that double throw on the 3 rd slide of the Standards ?

Back on subject, is the Standard comparable to the Supers ? The '47 Standard is more than I deserve but Covid has brought prices down a lot and I'm getting that itch again. Will I like the Super more than the Standard ?


The catalog image is hard to make out. If you look at Robb Stewart's picture of an Olds Symphony (a variation on the standard in bore and bell), you can see that the main stop rod is attached between the main tuning slide ferrule and the sleeve behind to set the distance of pull for A. There appears to be something attached to the third slide braces as well, but that is not what the description quoted was talking about. https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/585eae64cd0f68c6c06ab86e/1485320792303-QQ19NSXA6QTNSIB8KA1H/OldsSym1.JPG?format=2500w
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
A.N.A.Mendez
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 5225
Location: ca.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Olds models: https://www.trumpet-history.com/Olds%20Trumpet%20Models.pdf


So much mis information and just wrong opinions I don't know where to start. The most glaring is the Special morphing from the Standard. They were both made very early, perhaps the Standard morphed from "The Olds" ....????

I own the first Special made and it was in the late 30s, early 40s.....Had both the A# and C# adjusters...
_________________
"There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860

☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
A.N.A.Mendez
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 5225
Location: ca.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://i.postimg.cc/k5h8D5SR/image19.jpg
_________________
"There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860

☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2426

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A.N.A.Mendez wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Olds models: https://www.trumpet-history.com/Olds%20Trumpet%20Models.pdf


So much mis information and just wrong opinions I don't know where to start. The most glaring is the Special morphing from the Standard. They were both made very early, perhaps the Standard morphed from "The Olds" ....????

I own the first Special made and it was in the late 30s, early 40s.....Had both the A# and C# adjusters...


Feel free to offer constructive corrections - I usually incorporate them

(pre=WWII does not conflict with your late 30s and if you have the first, that serial could anchor a real start date I would be happy to include - I can only buy so many samples given the diversity of modern trumpets. Also, I agree that the Standard is essentially "The Olds" v. 2.0. Should that be more emphatically declared?)

Any other "mis-information": please be specific and provide the data to support and the doc will be amended as the data indicates.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Goby
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Jun 2017
Posts: 641

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My favorite Olds are the Opera and Pre-WWII Super.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Abraxas
Veteran Member


Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 345
Location: London, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:

The catalog image is hard to make out. If you look at Robb Stewart's picture of an Olds Symphony (a variation on the standard in bore and bell), you can see that the main stop rod is attached between the main tuning slide ferrule and the sleeve behind to set the distance of pull for A. There appears to be something attached to the third slide braces as well, but that is not what the description quoted was talking about. https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/585eae64cd0f68c6c06ab86e/1485320792303-QQ19NSXA6QTNSIB8KA1H/OldsSym1.JPG?format=2500w


My Standard does not have any stop rod on the main tuning slide and doesn't have the little nibs on the 1 st and 2 nd slides either. I just have this compound 3rd tuning slide. Let me see if I can post some images. While we are on to Olds, does anyone know who used to maintain the Olds Register ? I have some old Warranty Cards which would certainly and very reliably vouch for dates. https://www.dropbox.com/s/to3xoasonw1390y/Olds1and2slides.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ql3gt3nnpy2jxye/OldsStopRod.jpg?dl=0
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dr-pepp
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 541
Location: Austin TX

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Abraxas wrote:


I've seen this before and was talking to my repair man at our local shop about this contraption on the 3rd slide of my Standard. It says, on that linking doc: "Significant Characteristics: Bb/A quick change by way of the under-mounted stop-rod on the tuning slide" to which my repair man says balderdash ... impossible for a single slide on the third to do a complete pitch change.


The quick change on some of The Olds models was on the tuning slide, not the third valve slide.
_________________
Clay Collins
Owner, Centex Brass
www.centexbrass.com
also administrator of Olds Central
www.olds-central.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2426

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A.N.A.Mendez wrote:
The most glaring is the Special morphing from the Standard. They were both made very early,


After doing some digging, I have to agree with this critique. The page regarding the Model 11 Special will be changed as soon as I can get to it.

I had not seen the 1941 catalog Nick DeCarlis dug-up somewhere before, and it was an eye-opener. Based on the page detailing the three tiers of Olds models (Special, Standard & Super), Special was created in 1940 or 1941 (it is not mentioned in the 39 catalog and described as "newest" in 41) as a lower tier line. I had wrongly assumed Special to be a mid-grade and Standard to be the entry level Olds line, but it looks like Special was, per their statements, created to be a budget alternative.

So as was stated by ANAMendez, it certainly was not a successor. Rather, it appears to have begun as a thrifted design in parallel.

<<EDIT 11/6/2021 : the guide has been updated with this information>>



As for the oddly elaborate stop device on third, and sometimes first, it may be just that - unusually elaborate. I will defer to anyone with more experience with these as none of my Olds horns has one.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20


Last edited by OldSchoolEuph on Sat Nov 06, 2021 11:24 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Abraxas
Veteran Member


Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 345
Location: London, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
[
As for the oddly elaborate stop device on third, and sometimes first, it may be just that - unusually elaborate. I will defer to anyone with more experience with these as none of my Olds horns has one.


There certainly isn't any stop on my Standard for the main slide. That is only on the third compound slide. Do we have any photo proof that the standard ever had a first slide stop ? Any photos posted here, showing first slide stops, are not Standards so I'm confused on what the point of showing them is ? A look at Trent Austin's current Olds offerings is quite insightful.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
A.N.A.Mendez
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 5225
Location: ca.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://i.postimg.cc/k5h8D5SR/image19.jpg

This is a good reference for the various early parts and correct names.

I apologize for being harsh, I get riled when I think someone has pulled something off the web rather than having first hand knowledge , I didn't realize that was your stuff and I'm sure it represents some hard work. I think most of us Olds nuts know and respect each other.....
_________________
"There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860

☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
A.N.A.Mendez
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 5225
Location: ca.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A# and C# rods

https://postimg.cc/GBdSHFtG

This is a reverse wrap "The Olds" from the late 30s. Trust me, getting these off is no easy task.
_________________
"There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860

☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2426

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Abraxas wrote:
There certainly isn't any stop on my Standard for the main slide. That is only on the third compound slide. Do we have any photo proof that the standard ever had a first slide stop ? Any photos posted here, showing first slide stops, are not Standards so I'm confused on what the point of showing them is ? A look at Trent Austin's current Olds offerings is quite insightful.


Here is the Olds Standard page in the 1930 or 31 catalog at OldsCentral. The A stop rod on the tuning slide is clearly visible.

http://rouses.net/trumpet/olds30_cmi/olds_cmi_5.htm

Looking closely at your photos, your horn has been refinished and I believe there is just a hint of a shadow where the mount on the slide sleeve once stood (or it could be a wear mark). A stops are an annoyance, and the removal of them, many many decades ago, was quite common.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Abraxas
Veteran Member


Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 345
Location: London, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dr-pepp wrote:
Abraxas wrote:


I've seen this before and was talking to my repair man at our local shop about this contraption on the 3rd slide of my Standard. It says, on that linking doc: "Significant Characteristics: Bb/A quick change by way of the under-mounted stop-rod on the tuning slide" to which my repair man says balderdash ... impossible for a single slide on the third to do a complete pitch change.


The quick change on some of The Olds models was on the tuning slide, not the third valve slide.


That's "The Olds" model, not "The Standard" which is what we are talking about. Ron on his Power Point shows the Standard as having a main stop as you are indicating, but he places it on The Standard sketch. I suspect he has the wrong model illustration and I'm happy to provide him with photos of mine.

It's my understanding that The Olds morphed into The Standard that was in turn the father of many....... Super, Recording, Symphony ... they all look derived from The Standard to me at least with modest differences. .... tone ring on Super, offset 2 nd valve on Recording.

I don't see the Special having much in common with a Standard or Super.

Someone, descended from an Olds Exec and inheriting his father's notes said that the LA factory at least, had a single tolerance and metallurgy and the only difference between models was novelty trim kits, irrelevant to acoustics, at least during it's golden era. That could explain why so many pros ended up playing Ambassadors.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Abraxas
Veteran Member


Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 345
Location: London, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:

Here is the Olds Standard page in the 1930 or 31 catalog at OldsCentral. The A stop rod on the tuning slide is clearly visible.

http://rouses.net/trumpet/olds30_cmi/olds_cmi_5.htm

Looking closely at your photos, your horn has been refinished and I believe there is just a hint of a shadow where the mount on the slide sleeve once stood (or it could be a wear mark). A stops are an annoyance, and the removal of them, many many decades ago, was quite common.


OK could be a mod. That refinishing was done just a couple of weeks ago and the original had no main slide stop either so it didn't get knocked off at that time. Must be an option or as you said perhaps was removed. Provenance was a player from the Lawrence Welk show.

Here's a close up photo of that compound 3 rd slide, partly disassembled.. https://www.dropbox.com/s/jdwqaq0ij5ql02y/OldsCompound.jpg?dl=0


Last edited by Abraxas on Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:09 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dr-pepp
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 541
Location: Austin TX

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have literally hundreds of photos of vintage Olds trumpets and cornets, but only a few of the Standard model. I posted the photo of The Olds showing the "A# Adjusting Rod" because I thought there was some confusion about the location of that part and could not find a photo of a Standard with one. The Standard has never been a model that I had much interest for, so I've never bothered keeping track of photos from ebay and other sources. I did find a '47 Standard for sale on Reverb right now that has some pretty detailed photos and no "A# Adjusting Rod" (or brackets) so perhaps it was deleted in the later years of the Standard. https://reverb.com/item/37817696-f-e-olds-son-standard-trumpet-1947-los-angeles
_________________
Clay Collins
Owner, Centex Brass
www.centexbrass.com
also administrator of Olds Central
www.olds-central.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2426

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dr-pepp wrote:
I did find a '47 Standard for sale on Reverb right now that has some pretty detailed photos and no "A# Adjusting Rod" (or brackets) so perhaps it was deleted in the later years of the Standard. https://reverb.com/item/37817696-f-e-olds-son-standard-trumpet-1947-los-angeles


No stop rods at all - but post-war, so maybe deleted by Olds so that the buyer didn't have to...... But look at that 2-piece seam! That is one of the deepest 2-piece flare sections I have ever seen.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Abraxas
Veteran Member


Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 345
Location: London, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
dr-pepp wrote:
I did find a '47 Standard for sale on Reverb right now that has some pretty detailed photos and no "A# Adjusting Rod" (or brackets) so perhaps it was deleted in the later years of the Standard. https://reverb.com/item/37817696-f-e-olds-son-standard-trumpet-1947-los-angeles


No stop rods at all - but post-war, so maybe deleted by Olds so that the buyer didn't have to...... But look at that 2-piece seam! That is one of the deepest 2-piece flare sections I have ever seen.


The bell ... ya, unreal.

My first incarnation was that of a machinist, civilian and military and i have done some brazing/silver soldering. To see two pieces fused together with paper thin edges with silver solder presumably and leave hardly a trace is just amazing ! How I wonder ?

Thinking about it, they must have had a polished bell shaped mandrel/mold with a slit at the mating edge, put it in a lathe and used a parting tool to clean up both edges simultaneously. Hell maybe even lapped them together a little afterwards.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
A.N.A.Mendez
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 5225
Location: ca.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://i.postimg.cc/zGbd4bKt/IMG-6376.jpg


1940 Olds Standard
_________________
"There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860

☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2426

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Abraxas wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
dr-pepp wrote:
I did find a '47 Standard for sale on Reverb right now that has some pretty detailed photos and no "A# Adjusting Rod" (or brackets) so perhaps it was deleted in the later years of the Standard. https://reverb.com/item/37817696-f-e-olds-son-standard-trumpet-1947-los-angeles


No stop rods at all - but post-war, so maybe deleted by Olds so that the buyer didn't have to...... But look at that 2-piece seam! That is one of the deepest 2-piece flare sections I have ever seen.


The bell ... ya, unreal.

My first incarnation was that of a machinist, civilian and military and i have done some brazing/silver soldering. To see two pieces fused together with paper thin edges with silver solder presumably and leave hardly a trace is just amazing ! How I wonder ?

Thinking about it, they must have had a polished bell shaped mandrel/mold with a slit at the mating edge, put it in a lathe and used a parting tool to clean up both edges simultaneously. Hell maybe even lapped them together a little afterwards.


Bell seaming is often done by cutting small notches in one edge and fitting the two pieces together before fusing under a torch. This leaves a thick bead and the characteristic square jogs people call "staples". The bead is then pounded, ground, sanded, etc down to the same thickness as the rest of the material (there are some pretty traumatic ways such as how Bach crushes the seam of their one-piece bell). Spinning and buffing then does the rest.

What really amazes me is how far that flare piece is stretched given that it started as a sheet in the plane of the bell rim.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bill Ortiz
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 904

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played an Olds Super exclusively for a couple of years a little while back, and owned a Recording and Super Recording. As for which models are best, I think it’s all about what you prefer-all three have their own unique blow and tone, and build quality on all Olds horns is superb. My preference with the Supers are one’s from the ’40’s and earlier. I had a ’39 Super that I ended up selling-I’m still kicking myself for letting that one go.
_________________
'56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group