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Tony Scodwell
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Joined: 17 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:38 am    Post subject: Bugles Reply with quote

I would appreciate any feedback on my new bugle. My parts for this Bb/G bugle are made by Carol Brass with my design. It plays very much like my Bb trumpets and with the G slide in place pretty much as well. My question is:

Is the "Made In America" a determining point with the many players wanting to perform Taps at military funerals? It seems today just about everything we buy is made elsewhere including the parts for custom made instruments worldwide like my Scodwell USA trumpets and flugelhorns. You have military bands playing instruments made elsewhere in places around the world and as much as we all try to avoid buying goods not made in the US, it is getting next to impossible at major big box stores. I would never have changed suppliers if the quality was not better than my former supplier (domestic maker) but when I first tested the new parts, not only was the quality better but my rejection rate was non-existent. My new bugle will be in clear lacquer with a deluxe case offered at a very reasonable price and readily available. Your thoughts?

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are these arriving in the US as completely assembled and finished, or as parts?

If as parts, does this include bending, or only stock?

Are the slides fitted here or there?

I am guessing from what you typed that the answers are that the parts are arriving here as a kit and are assembled by you? With finishing in-house?

These questions would define if the instrument is "Globally supplier built unique to your US brand", or "Globally sourced with US assembly", or "US-made, including globally sourced components".

The underlying question of is it appropriate to use something fabricated in whole or in part in Nationalist China at the funeral of an American serviceman is an interesting question. My first thought is that in recent years, so many of these servicemen were in the service as allies of Nationalist China, first in WWII and then Korea, and then the Cold War. (Source your parts from Yamaha and it gets a bit stickier...)
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Liberty Lips
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As the manufacturing infrastructure in the U.S. continues to diminish, the "made in USA" moniker is becoming less and less significant. Getzen's field trumpet, while very good, is sold at a very high price point, and now that Kanstul is gone the Getzen is the only US made bugle that I'm aware of. Carol Brass has an excellent reputation, and if you can offer a good bugle at a reasonable price, the world will beat a path to your door.

Maybe.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see some purists balking at burying an American serviceperson with anything but an American made bugle. I personally wouldn't care and doubt that the majority of mourners would bother with this. The bugler is likely more concerned with the quality of the tool to sound as good as s/he can.
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gwood66
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony,

I am retired Navy and would not have an issue with someone playing one of your bugles at my service. A number of posts use electronic bugles render honors due to not have anyone available to play taps. My experience is that families are more concerned about having a real bugler.
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Tony Scodwell
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Joined: 17 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:54 am    Post subject: Scodwell USA bugle Reply with quote

Many thanks for your input. It sounds like the "Made In America" is getting less and less important these days and quality is the deciding factor. In my case, the first few bugles I made were with Carol Brass parts and some crooks from Allied Supply. The tubing also came from Allied Supply and as it took nearly as long to assemble as my Bb's, I felt in order to keep a supply on hand for immediate delivery I would ask my Carol Brass people if they would consider building the entire horn to my design. They were interested and quickly built a prototype for me to evaluate with their pieces already in production. A added benefit is the readily available cases they have which complete the package. For me to put the bugle together, send it to my guy for lacquering and then source a proper case would involve much more investment from me thereby making the bugle cost prohibitive to most players. The reputation Carol Brass have for high quality is well known and this bugle project should be well received, at least it appears that way from your posts. Again, many thanks for your input.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com
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ECLtmpt2
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play 'Taps' for the local VFW, funeral homes, and an organization (BAA) dedicated to providing a live bugler for our deceased service members. It is my small way of paying respect to those that have given for my free life style. My usual horns are made in the USA but one of them is a made in Japan Flugelhorn, it might even have been made in Taiwan. However, I am pretty sure none of the attendees, family members, friends, or other fellow service members have ever cared if the horn I was using was a sole-source made in the USA product. If the Japanese/Taiwanese Flugelhorn is best for the physical environment I'm playing in (it is NOT a performance) that's what I use. There is no concern about it being a "Made in the USA" horn.

Tony, I have not used any your horns but that has nothing to do with quality, place of manufacture/parts source, or any other reason other than I have never had the pleasure to own one of your highly respected horns...no matter where some of the parts came from.

It should be the 24 notes of 'Taps' that's important, not where the horn or some of it's parts come from. At least that is the way I see it. I'm sure your bugles are more than up to the task!


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Getzen
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking as a company that produces an American made field trumpet, I have to agree that the most important factor is that there is a live bugler present to sound the honor of Taps. Personally, I think it is a disgrace that any service member's funeral features a recording of Taps played on a boombox. The electronic bugles aren't much better, but at least the appearance of the honor guard is there.

First and foremost is a live musician, performing a live rendition of Taps. If individual musicians or family members prefer an American made instrument, that is their choice and we are happy to meet that demand. Let's be honest though, given the choice between an imported speaker or an imported instrument, we would all choose the instrument.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
I can see some purists balking at burying an American serviceperson with anything but an American made bugle. I personally wouldn't care and doubt that the majority of mourners would bother with this. The bugler is likely more concerned with the quality of the tool to sound as good as she/he can.

This is something I've never given even a single thought to, and I've rendered Taps at literally hundreds of funerals and memorial services, most recently for my sister-in-law's father just last night.

I've played Taps on Yamaha, Bach, Lawler, (original valved bugles at the Old Guard Fife and Drum Corps) Kanstul, Schilke, Jupiter and Shires - some are American made, some are not.

My hot take: if it plays well, no one is going to care where it was made.
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falado
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
kehaulani wrote:
I can see some purists balking at burying an American serviceperson with anything but an American made bugle. I personally wouldn't care and doubt that the majority of mourners would bother with this. The bugler is likely more concerned with the quality of the tool to sound as good as she/he can.

This is something I've never given even a single thought to, and I've rendered Taps at literally hundreds of funerals and memorial services, most recently for my sister-in-law's father just last night.

I've played Taps on Yamaha, Bach, Lawler, (original valved bugles at the Old Guard Fife and Drum Corps) Kanstul, Schilke, Jupiter and Shires - some are American made, some are not.

My hot take: if it plays well, no one is going to care where it was made.


I'm a retired US Navy musician and a member of bugles across America. I play Taps either on my Stomvi or my Bach 37, depending on what I'm playing that week.

I agree with Patrick. Play it well and they will not care. Nobody has ever asked me what make of trumpet I was playing. I usually don't stick around after the service, but have been thanked many times.

Check out Bugles Across America and please join if you feel compelled. I also usually play Taps in uniform. If nobody plays Taps on a real instrument someone will use a simulated plastic bugle with a recording/speaker in the bell.

Tony, please send us some pictures of your bugle and a price list.

Dave
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are huge fans of Bugles Across America. It was members of BAA that first approached us with the idea of making field trumpets again. They are the single biggest customer of the M2003 and M2003E field trumpets as members can purchase them from us through BAA.

It is a great organization that I wish more trumpeters knew about. Especially younger players. Many states have laws on the books that allow high school kids to earn credit toward state college tuition by performing Taps through their local VFW chapter and BAA does a lot to help facilitate that.
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falado
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getzen wrote:
We are huge fans of Bugles Across America. It was members of BAA that first approached us with the idea of making field trumpets again. They are the single biggest customer of the M2003 and M2003E field trumpets as members can purchase them from us through BAA.

It is a great organization that I wish more trumpeters knew about. Especially younger players. Many states have laws on the books that allow high school kids to earn credit toward state college tuition by performing Taps through their local VFW chapter and BAA does a lot to help facilitate that.


Wow Brett, great info. BAA needs new members. You will have to audition, yes, there is a correct way to play Taps. The audition is easy, make sure you look it up and play the correct rhythms in the middle section. Members are needed, I'm in rural Eastern North Carolina and I often get requests for services over 100 miles from home. I often can't take the time off to do these. I musician with a real instrument is best, not the plastic/recording.

Dave
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omelet
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it is an electronic rendition or recording of a bugle, who in the world do you think made that device or the chips that are in it?
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getzen wrote:
We are huge fans of Bugles Across America. It was members of BAA that first approached us with the idea of making field trumpets again. They are the single biggest customer of the M2003 and M2003E field trumpets as members can purchase them from us through BAA.

It is a great organization that I wish more trumpeters knew about. Especially younger players. Many states have laws on the books that allow high school kids to earn credit toward state college tuition by performing Taps through their local VFW chapter and BAA does a lot to help facilitate that.

I wish Tony all the best, and I'm happy he's getting good feedback on his plans.

I also echo Brett's statement. I purchased my Getzen M2003ES Bb/G Field Trumpet about 10 years ago, with the help of Bugles Across America. It's a great organization.

Mike
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a retired Marine Corps officer. I would prefer to use an instrument made in the U.S. for military funerals, but I have no objection to playing a bugle or field trumpet made in Taiwan (or Japan, Germany and so forth).

I haven't played taps at a funeral in years. When I did play taps, I just used my trumpet. I didn't play at funerals often enough to justify purchasing a bugle or field trumpet - though, now that I know they are available, of course I want one (bad habit).

I personally would not purchase an instrument made in a communist country. I wouldn't use one at a military funeral, but realistically, it is just about impossible to avoid buying products from communist China and I wouldn't hold it against an American manufacturer if he sourced parts from there.

I prefer purchasing instruments made in the United States. I did pick up a used B&S flugelhorn because it was priced significantly below market value. Actually, it is a very nice sounding flugelhorn. Still, as soon as I think that I can sneak it past my wife, I'd very much like to replace it with an American made flugelhorn - just because. I've played the Scodwell flugelhorn and love the sound; it is a terrific horn. I haven't played a Getzen flugelhorn (but I do have a brand new Getzen cornet on order). I lament the recent demise of Kanstul and hope that Scodwell and Getzen flourish.

Warm regards,
Grits
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J. Landress Brass
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a former Marine and a big supporter of American made products I do not have an issue with a bugle being made by Carol in Taiwan (not a communist country) and you being clean with that. Carol makes an outstanding product and I am sure yours will be at an attractive price point. I do have a big problem with the digital bugles used these days which are made in China. I think it is sad to see my fellow service members buried to a recording
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

omelet wrote:
If it is an electronic rendition or recording of a bugle, who in the world do you think made that device or the chips that are in it?


The US Department of Defense single-sourced production of the digital bugles to S & D Consulting Ltd., in New York. They do not disclose the supplier for either bugle body or electronic device. At one point, Kanstul was making bugle bodies. Today, one may imagine everything is likely from China. The recording, is a recording from a mic at a distance (which is why it sounds far off) at Arlington National Cemetery's Tomb of the Unknowns on Memorial Day 1999. The bugler is Sgt.Maj.Woody English, US Army, playing on a Bach Strad bugle that now resides at the Reagan Library in California. He has joked that he could be the only bugler in history to sound Taps at his own funeral. (When last I was at Bach, I was stunned to see a Strad bugle at Tedd's desk and remarked on there only being about 75 in existence - Tedd corrected me with "actually less". They were considering making a new one for English.)
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nytapsbugler
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the past 15 years, I have served as the "Special Bugler" for the New York Military Forces Honor Guard, NY Army National Guard, and, in addition, for the past 8 years as Principal Trumpet and Chief Bugler for The United States Coast Guard Auxilliary Band, "The Commodore's Own".
To date, I have sounded Taps for over 11,400 Military Funerals, and a countless number of ceremonies.
I grew up playing a pre-WW2 F. Besson Meha made in Paris, so the thought of playing a foreign-made instrument isn't foreign to me. I have 16 different instruments in my current arsenal, but my horns of choice for sounding Taps are my Gold-plated Bach Stradivarious Field Trumpet (Bb Bugle) one of the last batch of bugles Bach made for the US Army, a Silver Plated Kanstul Field Trumpet (Bb Bugle) or my L.A. Benge Cornet in brass lacquer. I rarely if ever use a trumpet to sound Taps as I prefer the darker tone quality of the Bugle or Cornet.
I use what sounds best and what works the best for me. I don't care where it was made, nor do I care who made it. I will never use a plastic mouthpiece nor an inferior instrument, but the end result must be- Taps will be beautiful and perfect. It's up to me to make that happen, not the equipment. Most importantly, Taps will be sounded professionally at the highest standard, live, for a deceased member of the US Military by an American!
The only persons who have ever asked me what horn or what mouthpiece I was using have been other trumpet players.

Mr. Scodwell, if you can produce a quality Bugle at an affordable price, I do believe there would be a market for it. You probably know this already, but Be advised Carol Brass is currently marketing their own Bb Bugle. It came out shortly after Kanstul closed. I haven't played one, but I understand it's pretty good. If the bugle you produce is similar in quality to your trumpets, I would love to try one.

PS I put on a US Military uniform every day, made and tailored in the USA. The fabric is imported from China.
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falado
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote from nytapsbugler
"I use what sounds best and what works the best for me. I don't care where it was made, nor do I care who made it. I will never use a plastic mouthpiece nor an inferior instrument, but the end result must be- Taps will be beautiful and perfect. It's up to me to make that happen, not the equipment. Most importantly, Taps will be sounded professionally at the highest standard, live, for a deceased member of the US Military by an American!"

+1
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WxJeff
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

falado wrote:


I'm a retired US Navy musician and a member of bugles across America. I play Taps either on my Stomvi or my Bach 37, depending on what I'm playing that week.

I agree with Patrick. Play it well and they will not care. Nobody has ever asked me what make of trumpet I was playing. I usually don't stick around after the service, but have been thanked many times.

Check out Bugles Across America and please join if you feel compelled. I also usually play Taps in uniform. If nobody plays Taps on a real instrument someone will use a simulated plastic bugle with a recording/speaker in the bell.

Tony, please send us some pictures of your bugle and a price list.

Dave


Great conversation, especially with Veteran's Day approaching.

I had to bold face part of your quote, because a couple weeks ago as I introduced myself to the funeral director, he pointed to my Bb horn and asked "Is that a real bugle or one of those electronic things?"

When I told him it was, indeed, "real" he said, "Great... I hate those recorded versions."

I am six months into my BAA experience and have found it to be extremely rewarding.
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