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cool arrow Regular Member
Joined: 28 Aug 2006 Posts: 28 Location: Ft. Worth
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Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:42 am Post subject: Large Bore Horns |
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I've played MLs (.459) all my life (40+ years). Currently play a Xeno 8335 and own an old Leblanc 727 Herriot horn that is Large bore.
The Xeno sounds stuffy and restrictive as I ascend and increase volume.
I thought I would benefit from a large bore horn but when I play the 727, although it plays more open, I have the tuning slide all the way in and am still about 8-12 cents flat throughout the horn, even with a 13A4A. Flatter with my Yamaha 16C4.
I would like any suggestions on how to proceed. I do plan on trying out new horns soon.
Thank you in advance.
CA _________________ Cool Arrow |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1825 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:43 am Post subject: |
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Check your mouthpiece gap. Some of the older French trumpets used mouthpieces with smaller shanks. Modern mouthpieces may fail to insert far enough. If that's not the problem, then you would need to shorten the main tuning slide (both male and female tubes. I've had several .468+ bore trumpets with no intonation problems so it may be specific to your trumpet - not the bore.
Using a larger bore tuning slide on your Xeno might help you. I've done it with other trumpets. M/K Drawing and Bending can fix you up. That's a lot cheaper than a new trumpet.
Of course the cheap easy solution is to try a mouthpiece with a larger throat and backbore on your Xeno. |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2028 Location: USA
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Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:55 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | I thought I would benefit from a large bore horn |
You, your mouthpiece and the trumpet are a system. There are many things you can do to that system to get a more open feel. Bore size is just one piece of that system, and not necessarily the most important one. The leadpipe venturi, shape of the main tuning slide, bell flare...can all influence the feel of the horn. The gap between the end of your mouthpiece shank and the beginning of the leadpipe also matters, along with the mouthpiece throat, backbore, etc. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9005 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:31 am Post subject: |
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Make sure that you're not treating the ML bore horn like the L. You may be overblowing when you play high.
I would, personally, look at the source of the sound (me) before I start micro-managing the "problem" with a lot of equipment manipulations. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Bill Ortiz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 904
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Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Kehaulani makes a good point. You want to make sure you let the horn do the work with the ML horn, using a more efficient approach. I also agree with Andy regarding the gap-in my experience an incorrect gap can add unwanted resistance. Good luck with it all cool arrow :) _________________ '56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA |
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trompette229 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Mar 2016 Posts: 203
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Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Large Bore Horns |
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cool arrow wrote: | I've played MLs (.459) all my life (40+ years). Currently play a Xeno 8335 and own an old Leblanc 727 Herriot horn that is Large bore.
The Xeno sounds stuffy and restrictive as I ascend and increase volume.
I thought I would benefit from a large bore horn but when I play the 727, although it plays more open, I have the tuning slide all the way in and am still about 8-12 cents flat throughout the horn, even with a 13A4A. Flatter with my Yamaha 16C4.
I would like any suggestions on how to proceed. I do plan on trying out new horns soon.
Thank you in advance.
CA |
The bore of the horn shouldn't affect the pitch so something else is going on there when you play the L bore horn. In other words, if you have 2 identical horns, one medium bore and one large, the pitch should be approximately the same as it's determined by the length of the instrument.
If your tuning slide pull is normal on your Xeno, there's likely a mismatch with gap/mpce/horn going on with the 727. You might try getting a colleague to try the 727 and see what happens there also. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8911 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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I've had two different ML Bachs and a large-bore 70's vintage Holton MF. Using the same mouthpiece, the slide position on them has been pretty typical. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Divitt Trumpets Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2015 Posts: 520 Location: Toronto
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dershem Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1887 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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You can't go by numbers. Bore size is just one of many things about a horn that affect how it feels and how it sounds. I tried a few of Charlie Davis' horns a few weeks ago, and while I play large horns (.464 and up for trumpets, .468 and up for cornets... for a number of reasons, mostly because I double on bone and bass bone a lot) some of them (all medium bore) were very comfortable. The Shew horn is mostly comfortable for me. So it isn't the bore size, it's the combination of factors, including the mouthpiece that determines whether a horn works for you. _________________ BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces. |
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