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RL Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Sep 2009 Posts: 162
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:48 am Post subject: |
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There was a time that B&S made the Bells for Bach.
So a cloned bell for the original Bach |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:59 am Post subject: |
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RL wrote: | There was a time that B&S made the Bells for Bach.
So a cloned bell for the original Bach |
Were do you get this from? _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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RL Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Sep 2009 Posts: 162
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:36 am Post subject: |
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There is video somewhere as well but couldn't find it so fast.
The Vincent Bach connection comes naturally, explains JA Musik Marketing Manager Marcus Borchert. "Before 1935, Vincent Bach purchased thousands of bells for his famous handmade trumpets from the Emil Korners brass instrument factory in Markneukirchen. Korners later became B&S, and the founder's great-grandchild still works at B&S. There's a great deal of history behind our horns." |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, where to start……
B&S is short for Blechblas und SignalInstrumenten Fabrik, which was created in 1953 as a Volkseigner Betrieb under the communist government. (A “people’s collective” enterprise might be one way to translate that) It was formed by merging the resources of the Leipzig-based Walther company (est. 1925), the workshop of Ernst Hess Nachf which is referred to as Saxon Musical Instrument Works, and Max B. Martin’s 1902-founded SignalInstrumentenFabrik Markneukirchen. The government subsequently added GH Huller, Oscar Adler, and at least one Monnig family enterprise. Subsequent collectivization then merged B&S into Vogtländische Musikinstrumentenfabrik, or VMI as it still remains doing most of the heavy lifting in the background today.
I see nothing regarding "Emil Korners" as a component of B&S or VMI. Bach purchased a lot of valves from Emil K. Blessing in the 1920s, but not an Emil Korners. In fact, the only record of Emil Korners I can find is a post (with the same quote) on trumpet.nl by Theo Van Kampen – I don’t find this firm mentioned anywhere else.
Beyond that, in 1935, Bach had made a little over 2000 instruments. It would take him the next 5 years to make another 2000. Bach would never have purchased, or made, “thousands of bells” in 1935.
Bach outsourced some parts, among them valves from Emil Blessing, and yes, a small number of bells from Germany FOR ROTARY TRUMPETS in the late 20s and 30s. But that line about thousands of Strad bells being German is simply absurd. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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giligan385 New Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 Posts: 2
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | giligan385 wrote: | The most interesting part of this is while brands like B&S are perceived as making a "copy," it couldn't be further from the truth. With this same mindset, the 180S37 is a copy of the old Bessons that were popular when Vincent Bach was first expanding his mpc business. |
B&S openly referred to the Challengers as Bach clones - so I think it fair to say "copy" there. And while every modern trumpet loosely follows the wrap pioneered around 1880 by Fontaine-Besson, the model 180, particularly with a 37 bell, is far from a clone - significantly further even than the first Bachs with say a T or a 7 bell, the shorter wrap, and the true Besson D radius slide. Bach evolved his valves through at least 6 iterations from a Blessing starting point, not Besson, his leadpipes through many more, starting from - and returning to - Holton concepts, and his wrap from a Besson-esque 2-over-2-under to a very Holton like wrap in the mid 50's, which then became the 180 with adjustments to tighten centering and have a normal looking pull as requested by Selmer. The first Bach Strads were unique from their inspirations, as was every generation that followed, in a way that one cannot say about a B&S Challenger (or the Holton T-101 series of Bach clones). |
You obviously have an enormous amount of knowledge on this subject and I thank you for sharing it and correcting me here about the 180S37 having generations of models before landing on this signature design.
I'd argue that B&S also never advertised the fact that it was a clone/copy. They touted that they were "Challenging" the competition with a German-made product at an extremely affordable price. The community coined the terms you are using. I could be wrong but I don't recall seeing anything to back up that claim from the company.
That said, my overall point was that discounting any brand for being a copy would be unwise as the specifications are common knowledge and every brand offers something resembling this design nowadays. This means the manufacturing process is what sets them all apart in some way. Find out what makes them unique if you want but above all, play them to see what you like or dislike. |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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giligan385 wrote: | That said, my overall point was that discounting any brand for being a copy would be unwise as the specifications are common knowledge and every brand offers something resembling this design nowadays. |
On that we agree. My initial point was simply that there was nothing wrong with comparing B&S to Chinese companies - some of whom make excellent clones.
As for the advertising, I would have to dig into the old catalogs from assorted Guitar Center divisions, but the advertising as a clone/copy was there.
And, nothing wrong with a good copy. - like the Holton T-101, in fact the Holton T-105 is one of my favorite "Bachs" _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 654 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:42 am Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | Hiker74 wrote: | I found a Stradivarius 43 at a good price point, but it’s 14+ hrs away. How many of you would buy a horn without playing it if it was a really good deal? It’s the same era of manufacture as the one I previously had (1990-1994). |
From that period I absolutely WOULD NOT buy it without checking it out in person extensively. |
The 180-37 serial number 298138 I played last week turned out to be a Bach like a Bach should be: easy to play, great sounding with the typical Bach core: go figure!
Buy that Bach if the price is right. Again, if you do not like her, just sell her for the same price. I would take all that fairy tails about 90's bad bachs with a grain of salt _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:49 am Post subject: |
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'short list', what's in a name |
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Hiker74 Regular Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2016 Posts: 38 Location: Indianapolis, IN
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:40 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for all of the feedback. There's a wealth of knowledge on here |
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Hiker74 Regular Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2016 Posts: 38 Location: Indianapolis, IN
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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delano wrote: | 'short list', what's in a name |
Ha ha I know, right |
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Bill Ortiz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 904
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Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:01 am Post subject: |
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I haven’t had very much experience with Bach trumpets-in the past I've mostly played Martins, Schilkes, Olds, and Benge. Can someone tell me the differences in how the different Bach bells (43,72,37) sound and play? Thanks :) _________________ '56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2041 Location: USA
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Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:00 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Can someone tell me the differences in how the different Bach bells (43,72,37) sound and play? Thanks |
I'd describe the 37 bell as having the most "core" to the sound and being the most focused of the three. The 43 bell is brighter and the sound spreads more. The 72 bell is darker/warmer and the sound spreads even more.
That's keeping all other things constant. If you take a lightweight 72 bell and a reversed 43 leadpipe you'll get a horn with a very different sound than a 18072 with a standard weight bell, and standard 25 leadpipe. |
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hose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 1854 Location: Winter Garden, FL
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Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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I would not buy a used horn without playing it. You never know what has been altered or even if it was a decent horn to start with. Bachs, with their sheer manufactured numbers are especially all over the place in playability. Some really great ones that might have been chosen by pros at the factory and some real dogs from a music store shelf. The really great ones don't have to be advertised on the internet. Someone has already spoken for it. _________________ Dave Wisner
Picketts
Yamaha 6335RC
Yamaha 8335RS
Lawler Flugel
Kanstul cornet |
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Hiker74 Regular Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2016 Posts: 38 Location: Indianapolis, IN
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Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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A great gentleman on this forum reached out to me via private message and had a Schilke S32HD for sale at a nice deal he let me do a try before buying. He also included a ACB MC3C mouthpiece. It arrived today and its in wonderful shape. I'm definitely going for it.
I also scored a very good condition Bach anniversary hard case on Facebook marketplace last week for $45. It was literally 5 minutes down the road from me.
I'm over the moon! I'll get a care kit and some music tomorrow to get going on this again.
Jon |
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