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cornet74 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 May 2013 Posts: 504
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Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:28 pm Post subject: Two piece valve casings. |
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This is an area I've never understood. Why are two pice cave casings considered better than one pice casings. I know there was a whole hubbub when VB changed from two pice to one pice on their standard Strad. Horns
For a layperson; meaning one who played and not makes horns, I have a pretty good grasp on n the concept of one and two piece bells.
But valve casings?? I'm in the dark, and all ears should someone be kind enough to the subject.
Thank you. _________________ Now:
Yamaha 203 Tenor Horn
Bach, Wick, Yamaha Mouthpieces
Wick Wooden Tenor Horn Straight Mute |
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James Becker Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
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Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:10 am Post subject: |
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Nickel and yellow brass have different acoustical properties making the two piece nickel on valve casings feel and sound different from brass only.
As a rule when nickel components take the place of brass ones there's added resistance and more complex overtones. Typically trumpets or cornets with nickel leadpipes and/or inner slide tubes are best mated with larger bore, larger bells and goldbrass bells.
A good example is a Bach 44 nickel leadpipe with 72G or 65G large bells.
Another is Bach LT42G trombone with light weight nickel handslide and goldbrass bell.
I hope this is helpful. _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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cornet74 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 May 2013 Posts: 504
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Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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James Becker wrote: | Nickel and yellow brass have different acoustical properties making the two piece nickel on valve casings feel and sound different from brass only.
As a rule when nickel components take the place of brass ones there's added resistance and more complex overtones. Typically trumpets or cornets with nickel leadpipes and/or inner slide tubes are best mated with larger bore, larger bells and goldbrass bells.
A good example is a Bach 44 nickel leadpipe with 72G or 65G large bells.
Another is Bach LT42G trombone with light weight nickel handslide and goldbrass bell.
I hope this is helpful. |
Thank you so much for your consist but highly informative post. I do have one question: my custom Flumpet, an XO made by Mr. Hadio (Hadio-San) for me when I lived in Tokyo has two piece valve casings. But both the bottom and tops are the same material. I can say that on his regular weight horns the valve casings are different than the heavy ones so that the valve casings are flush or integral with the valve tops that screw on. Strangely, many of his trumpets empty much nickel silver on the horns including the mpc receiver, but not on the tops of the valve casing.
If you are not familiar with Mr.Haidio, he runs his own shop out of Global Music in Tokyo. He was formerly a chief designer at Yamaha before the Bob Malone coup. He and his team are largely credited with the invention of the Xeno trumpet although he denies it to a fault.
His line of trumpets, the XO (not to be confused with the Jupiter XO brand) are wonderful horns not available, to my knowledge, in the States. I owned one for awhile and it was a wonderful horn; a sort of cross between a Bach and B series Schilke. Mine was more of a 72/43 which was too big for me so I no longer have it. But the Flumpet he made for me is a superb horn.
Again, thank you very much for your explanation. However, a question is still left in my mind why the XO trumpet would employ a two piece valve casing of the same material; yet, have NS thru out the horn including the mpc receiver.
Thank you. _________________ Now:
Yamaha 203 Tenor Horn
Bach, Wick, Yamaha Mouthpieces
Wick Wooden Tenor Horn Straight Mute |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3619 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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Two-piece valve casings can be a manufacturing efficiency. It's got nothing to do with sound, it's about saving money. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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Adam R. Getzen Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Apr 2013 Posts: 654 Location: Elkhorn, WI.
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Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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yourbrass wrote: | Two-piece valve casings can be a manufacturing efficiency. It's got nothing to do with sound, it's about saving money. |
Uh, no. It is cheaper to just make one-piece valve casing blanks. But you're right, it is strictly about saving money. _________________ Adam R. Getzen
Vice President & Co-Owner
Getzen Company |
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AlfaFreak Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2011 Posts: 379 Location: Australia
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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Adam above would definately know, though i believe back in the mid 60's it was cheaper and easier to product a two piece valve casing. Modern technologies and techniques have obviously reversed that now.
Interesting to note that in the early 70's, the Yamaha "Custom" range of instruments (900 series) used a three piece casing. Nickel Silver Upper, Yellow Brass lower and a gold/red brass liner.
Cheers _________________ Yamaha Loyalist Website
YamahaCollector FaceBook |
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ML52K Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Dec 2003 Posts: 148 Location: Adirondacks of NY
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Long time Bach employee/manager Tedd Waggoner was interviewed on Bob Reeves pod-cast and was asked this question specifically. His answer confirmed what I had read at an earlier time: in early production, tooling could not make the specific grooves at the depth into the casing that was required. So the casing was made in two pieces, in which the lower case part the grooves were cut, then the two pieces were mated.
I conjecture that the two pieces were made of different materials based on aesthetics. Maybe not: perhaps Vincent Bach manufactured cylinders with both all brass and brass/nickel and in fact preferred the subtle sound differences.
At any rate, later development of machining techniques permitted the grooves to be cut in a single, longer single brass cylinder, making production both less complicated and less expensive.
So what was once necessitated by then-modern manufacturing techniques has now become the thing of trumpet lore, with subtle sound differences that may or may not be evident to the player/listener.
In my opinion, if the horn is silver plated, it makes no difference to me if the upper cylinder is nickel:it's all silver after the plating. But the two tone cylinder is quite visible in the lacquered horn, and draws my breath, just as it did the very first time I laid eyes on my 1970 Strad. |
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Maarten van Weverwijk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2006 Posts: 3377
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:56 am Post subject: |
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ML52K wrote: | ...later development of machining techniques permitted the grooves to be cut in a single, longer single brass cylinder, making production both less complicated and less expensive... |
Often (but not always) it's way simpler and cheaper than that:
A separate ring with cut out grooves is inserted under pressure or soldered into place, then the casing is honed to specs followed by lapping with the actual valve.
MvW. |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3619 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:55 am Post subject: |
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AlfaFreak wrote: | Adam above would definately know, though i believe back in the mid 60's it was cheaper and easier to product a two piece valve casing. Modern technologies and techniques have obviously reversed that now.
Interesting to note that in the early 70's, the Yamaha "Custom" range of instruments (900 series) used a three piece casing. Nickel Silver Upper, Yellow Brass lower and a gold/red brass liner.
Cheers |
Conn was making a three-piece valve casing in the early 1920's. My 28B has gold brass balusters (top part), copper casings, and a yellow brass insert on the bottom inserted into the copper casing and cut for the bottom threads. Pretty intricate for that day, and I have no idea why they did that - maybe just to show that they could?
-Lionel _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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cornet74 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 May 2013 Posts: 504
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:03 am Post subject: |
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Adam R. Getzen wrote: | yourbrass wrote: | Two-piece valve casings can be a manufacturing efficiency. It's got nothing to do with sound, it's about saving money. |
Uh, no. It is cheaper to just make one-piece valve casing blanks. But you're right, it is strictly about saving money. |
I love this answer. And I appreciate the comments above as I started this thread.
Thank you. _________________ Now:
Yamaha 203 Tenor Horn
Bach, Wick, Yamaha Mouthpieces
Wick Wooden Tenor Horn Straight Mute |
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Chadwick Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2009 Posts: 142 Location: United States
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:03 am Post subject: |
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Does anyone happen to know if/when Yamaha moved away from the older valve casings on their YTR-6335S and YTR-6345S valve sections of the early 1980s? Were these model trumpets mostly made in Europe / outside the US?
I’m looking to replicate the response of my early 1980s YTR-6345S .463”/11.76mm bore valve section in a future frankenhorn, and am hoping to identify if/when Yamaha switched over their valve cluster designs.
Thanks!
(I’m dredging up this old thread because Google gave me this as the top result on TH to my Yamaha valve casing question.)
Last edited by Chadwick on Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:21 am Post subject: |
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I suppose when they changed the bore size in 1997. The 6335 from 0.460 to 0.459, the 6345 from 0.463 to 0.462. All these horns were made in Japan. |
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kramergfy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 992 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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I question the notion that the two-piece, nickel silver balusters on Vincent Bach’s horns were mostly aesthetic choices; the man was clearly a meticulous engineer who designed every bit of his horns with specific intent. Even the lightweight horns had bronze balusters at a time. A lot of this becomes “voodoo”, but it all makes a difference. _________________ "I'm 73 and I'm still learning." - Maurice Murphy
Thread killer. |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7003 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:48 am Post subject: |
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kramergfy wrote: | I question the notion that the two-piece, nickel silver balusters on Vincent Bach’s horns were mostly aesthetic choices; the man was clearly a meticulous engineer who designed every bit of his horns with specific intent. Even the lightweight horns had bronze balusters at a time. A lot of this becomes “voodoo”, but it all makes a difference. |
I agree. In my experience, nickel parts add a snappiness to a horn's response in comparison to yellow brass, which is "sloppier." There was a day when I showed a Wild Thing and Celebration to Harry Kim and one of his friends at a practice room in Hollywood.
Harry had brought along his Kanstul Besson flugelhorn (essentially a 925) and compared it to my Kanstul 1025 which had a nickel French taper tuning bit, at the time. You can interchange those parts between those models of flugelhorn. Harry liked my horn and liked the nickel tuning bit in his own horn, because it allowed for crisper articulation.
My guess is that Vincent Bach understood his target market and opted to add the extra crispness and, as James Becker writes above, complexity of overtones. This would "play well" in the symphonic world of trumpet playing. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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