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Shaft Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 984
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Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:13 am Post subject: |
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More or less contextually speaking.
When I was younger I sought out any information I could find.
It came in the form of
Online write ups on how to approach trumpet playing
Method books in print
Videos of instruction
Private lessons with professors, professionals, etc.
So I asked because if Lionel or anyone else in general
is serious about playing high, or mastering the instrument in general…
Have they approached the path by including lessons with trumpeters
capable of playing how they want to play?
Or is it just a matter of opening up the Stevens Costello 100+ pg PDF
and approaching learning strictly that way?
Its not exactly black and white and I doubt it would be for anyone but the point is that we have many highly qualified performers, and teachers in the current era and it would be wise of anyone to tap into the vast ability and expertise on one’s path and build relationships along the way.
Robert P is right to ask for more in the sense that if one is to come on the forum and repeatedly say the entire education system needs to be overhauled to start kids off with the SC method yet has only 500-1000 word essays touting what is a 3 year embouchure change it just is simply not going to move the entire professional community to overhaul the educational system like that.
I have never heard anyone that is highly respected make such an advocation. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9013 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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About the seemingly acceptance of beginning students not starting with high notes - I don't teach this but I wish Jeff Smiiey would weigh in on this. It seems to me that his Balanced Embouchure sysem relates to this.
While certainly not using the C-S system exclusively, he has had success with teaching young students to play high with a rolled-in embouchure and these students can play in the stratosphere. What I don't know is how long this usually takes.
Perhaps Jeff can resolve some of this and the difference between teaching a rolled-in embouchure for high notes and conventional for the rest of the range, balanced and modulated between tessituras. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:02 am Post subject: |
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With any 'teaching system' there are 2 main parts -
1) the teaching of 'how to do' the action
2) the 'method' that is used to do the teaching
With trumpet playing, the 'how to do' is concerned with items such as embouchure setup and adjustment, air flow, tonguing, etc.
The 'method' can take many forms, and the C-S method uses its own type.
A successful teacher needs to have good ability in BOTH the aspects. If an ineffective method of teaching is used, then the 'how to do' might not get learned by the student.
With C-S (and others) , it is worthwhile to identify and learn the individual 'parts' of the system (including those that seem confusing, or which don't seem useful to you personally). And to then blend those parts in a manner that results in effective 'how to do' actions. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9013 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:09 am Post subject: |
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BTW, I noticed this morning that, as part of their Black Friday sale, qPress is selling the Stevens-Costello Method at 60%; _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
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Voltrane Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 20 Jan 2006 Posts: 629 Location: Paris (France)
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Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:27 am Post subject: |
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Result of this skeptical thread? ![](images/smiles/icon_wink.gif) _________________ S’il n’en reste qu’un je serai celui là (Victor Hugo)
Je m’empresse d’en rire de peur d’avoir à en pleurer (Beaumarchais) |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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Shaft wrote: | More or less contextually speaking.
When I was younger I sought out any information I could find.
It came in the form of
Online write ups on how to approach trumpet playing
Method books in print
Videos of instruction
Private lessons with professors, professionals, etc.
So I asked because if Lionel or anyone else in general
is serious about playing high, or mastering the instrument in general…
Have they approached the path by including lessons with trumpeters
capable of playing how they want to play?
Or is it just a matter of opening up the Stevens Costello 100+ pg PDF
and approaching learning strictly that way?
Its not exactly black and white and I doubt it would be for anyone but the point is that we have many highly qualified performers, and teachers in the current era and it would be wise of anyone to tap into the vast ability and expertise on one’s path and build relationships along the way.
Robert P is right to ask for more in the sense that if one is to come on the forum and repeatedly say the entire education system needs to be overhauled to start kids off with the SC method yet has only 500-1000 word essays touting what is a 3 year embouchure change it just is simply not going to move the entire professional community to overhaul the educational system like that.
I have never heard anyone that is highly respected make such an advocation. |
Last question first. Can't answer all of them. Also the general tone of this topic has been going down. I certainly haven't indulged in making negative remarks. I think that those who do are basically trying to silence the message by silencing the messenger. Sorry folks! I'm still alive & well.
A highly respected trumpet player is also probably someone whose embouchure accidentally lines up to his physical advantage pretty well to begin with. Reinhardt described this person as a "physical accident" and one who doesn't deserve much credit for his outstanding ability. Probably a little harsh but I tend to agree. You can't exactly go up to Jon Faddis, take a lesson or two and expect to soon be on the road to developing his ability. You may learn some things about music and Jazz. But I doubt that your chops will develop into the utter beast that he has long since become. At any rate, I respect Jon. Live his Jazz and work. But I've never heard him speak of how physical law allows him to play the outstanding passages he regularly does.
What I infer from these naturally able players is that since they've never really had to struggle that much (compared to the rest of us) they don't make very good teachers. At least in reference to embouchure. I thus discount their advice and opinions on the matter. I'm pretty sure that I'm right on this. So we may forget about what they say on this subject.
I like to compare the way a reed player is initially taught with the way we teach a beginning trumpet player learns.
There is only one proper way to assemble a clarinet or saxophone. Not surprisingly there are few if any reed players with range limitations. However the beginning trumpet player is usually taught to position the mouthpiece onto his lips "in any position that he can first achieve a sound with it". Yet we would never instruct a reed player to do this! He might assemble the instrument with the reed upside down. And/or the ligature inverted.
Our beginning trumpet player is then instructed to blow an assortment of lower register long times. As the result of this? He forms a loose, flabby set of chops that will almost never result in him developing the complete range of the instrument. As Roy Stevens or perhaps Bill Costello said,
"He sooner or later discovers that there actually is an upper register to the horn and except in few cases?
He doesn't have one. As far as me expecting the whole trumpet teaching community to do an about face and start teaching kids how to play according to physical law and eventually develop the complete range on the horn?
Well I certainly don't expect that to happen over night. Although this may change over the next fifty years. Teaching, especially the colleges are very slow to change their curriculum. A degree in Computer Science is almost obsolete by the time a senior graduates. But getting back to trumpet playing? I think that teachers of the instrument should seek out more knowledge. Heck many of them don't.even have good register themselves. An old saying goes,
"You can't give away what you don't have".
And the student may be prone to taking the easy way out. Learning high notes can be difficult. It takes more patience and time than does just playing the lower half. My own student Ray could easily morph himself into the Stevens System. But being kind of a millennial? He's not all that motivated. Hey, the lower half on our instrument is much easier to learn than the top end. There's no conspiracy here to prevent the proper education of a young player. It's just the system has a heavy resistance to change. I call this condition "Stationary Inertia". If I had never been able to blow notes above a High C I too would probably feel resentful of those who can.
I have offered logical proof that the existing teaching system tends to produce trumpet players with a limited range. After all, ours is the only instrument outside of vocals where range limitations are the rule. Not an exception. This tells us that something is wrong with the system.
Last comment for the day,
Some players can adapt to the Stevens System fairly quickly. My student 'Ray' merely needs to push his jaw out. This instantly made his range climb up to at least High G and well above that on a good day.
As for myself on the other hand? I was not an easy conversion to Stevens Embouchure at all. Was difficult for me to initially make the statics come out. Indeed today I'm starting my third year. Or roughly 24 months into it. However I will never go back to my former way of blowing the horn. Finally at least I no longer have a ceiling in my register. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9013 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:50 am Post subject: |
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Lionel, just a quick observation. It seems that you're fond of using the technique of "redirection" whenever a question comes up that, seemingly, you don't want to answer.
Also, you still don't give a list of Stevens protégés, and you still haven't provided examples of your playing Stevens so we can know exactly what you're talking about.
It makes things seem somewhat arbitrary and I'm sure you can easily resolve this. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Lionel, just a quick observation. It seems that you're fond of using the technique of "redirection" whenever a question comes up that, seemingly, you don't want to answer.
Also, you still don't give a list of Stevens protégés, and you still haven't provided examples of your playing Stevens so we can know exactly what you're talking about.
It makes things seem somewhat arbitrary and I'm sure you can easily resolve this. |
All that I can tell you is that it's coming. We're all kinda like Clemenza and Tessio now. Waiting on Michael Corleone to take the gloves off.
So here's what I'll do. I will contact you in private message within a day or two. Then tell you where you can find an example of my current playing. Initially I wanted to wait until the three year beginner stage was over. And yet at the same time I wanted to describe the hopes & fears of my condition as I'm going through it presently. Also, by writing these updates (as I do from time to time here) it will help enhance my future ability to both adjudicate students going through a similar transition. That and encourage them. To this extent TH has been my "Dear Diary"
I have been very forthcoming and mentioned many times here that I am a beginner to the Stevens System. It being only two years ago that I completely changed my embouchure. And I'm not talking about a minor positional change of the mouthpiece location either. No left or right or up or down change of mouthpiece position on my chops. Instead I made a change so radically different that in early 2020 I was an absolute beginner on the instrument once again. Albeit one who already knew the fingerings and read music.
Besides that? Like a beginner, I briefly couldn't play even one musical note and stayed out of all ensemble work until the following Summer of 2020. At which time I took only 3rd Cornet parts in a local ensemble. That and felt damned lucky just to be in any ensemble again. This is a group where prior to my dental injury that destroyed my playing? I had once been the strongest and most senior trumpet in the section.
Just the psychological trauma of going through a drawn out series of happenstances such as these created much trepidation and doubt. I truly think this process requires faith. Logic followed by faith.
But as for examples? As I stated, and you may check Wikipedia Roy Stevens died in 1988 over thirty three years ago. Now I have trouble recalling people I met last year. And you want a whole host of Stevens players? What the heck you want from me? I've told you that Dr Moriarty is still around probably in St Louis. He published both editions of the Stevens book and the second in only 2005. Why not look him up? He's a better source than me.
Study my ideas. Stop attacking the messenger. Do my words make sense? Use critical thinking.
During his heyday his students included Phil Driscoll, Don Ellis, and Roy Roman. Hundreds more waited outside his NYC studio on a regular basis. Every once in a while I see people who claim to be teachers of the system. However unless they were to carry Dr Moriarty's endorsement? I wouldn't necessarily take them seriously.
Most/all of my discussion has been about physical law associated with sound production on the trumpet. You're reading a physics term paper here. This is not an audition nor another trumpet jury like in college. Roy Stevens well understood that his students must first develop this physical understanding. Otherwise the chances of being able to have access to the complete range on the instrument is unlikely. The mere repetition of exercises is what he called "The Evolutionary Method". Which actually is a part of the learning process at times but has some serious limitations now & then on the trumpet.
Example: it's all well & good to gradually increase the tempo on your middle register technical exercises. Fine & dandy.
However to merely increase the register in which a piece is practiced in will usually only result in a cut-off point.
Hey, read that sentence again, okay?
"To merely increase the register in which a piece is practiced in will usually only result in a cut-off point". Think!
Trumpet players usually have a ceiling "ceiling in sound". A point where no more high notes above it can be reached. We've all seen this. Only a lucky few trumpet players are ever able to convert their middle register, flabby chops into the ability to blow high notes. This is the limitation of the "Evolutionary Method". It's fine for saxophone or even learning flute. This is because the apparatus that produces the vibration is always complete on these instruments. We know that this condition is true because we've seen & heard enough range-limited trumpet players. Too many really. As our teaching methods have failed us.
Range problems ARE our condition. They are the rule. Cats like Nicholson are the exception. The Evolutionary Method worked for him. Probably because everything in his mouth lined up. I'll have to ask him if he ever experimented much. I don't think so. According to his story he was playing in marching band in high school one day and wanted to showboat by hitting a medium loud G/high C. But he didn't have enough time to wet his lips properly before starting the tone. So instead of the small High G?
To his surprise & amazement a huge Double C came out. And this was how he discovered his extreme upper register initially.
So let's think about the average trumpet player. Part of his instrument is located in his mouth. This area needs about three years of training in some cases to become complete. I'm almost exactly two years into the deal. So this is starting to get really exciting. However the first year was almost brutal. Good days followed by truly bad days. I am not like Lynn much at all that way. In fact I wish that Roy Stevens had written more about those students of his who struggled more than the rest But I've learned an incredible depth of understanding over the past couple years. This is so because I once was a fairly capable lead player. Yet once my chops were destroyed I still had a great deal of background knowledge. My mind still understood the trumpet intimately. I simply couldn't execute my thoughts due to a dead embouchure. Something I don't wish on anyone.
And as I practiced I gained an understanding of what goes through the beginner's mind. But perhaps more importantly? I've recently learned the best exercises possible to help gain embouchure development.
To restate:
My words or essays here explain a blueprint. That and present an archive of how I'm learning high notes. The complete range on the horn. Perhaps these notes will only be valuable to me. Yet it has been my intent to create a chronicle of my struggles and successes during this three year period. Of which I'm two years into. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Lionel wrote: |
I have been very forthcoming and mentioned many times here that I am a beginner to the Stevens System. It being only two years ago that I completely changed my embouchure. |
A beginner? You say you can play a double C easier than you could play a high C previously. Curiously you refuse to demonstrate it.
Quote: | But as for examples? Now I have trouble recalling people I met last year. And you want a whole host of Stevens players? What the heck you want from me?
Study my ideas. Stop attacking the messenger. Do my words make sense? Use critical thinking. |
Lol - challenging you to provide substantiation for your assertions isn't "attacking the messenger". No your words don't make sense, they sound silly because you can't back them up with anything that demonstrates them to be anything other than a whim you came up with.
Your words/ideas:
Quote: | Trumpet players usually have a ceiling "ceiling in sound". A point where no more high notes above it can be reached. |
Usually? Name a trumpet player who doesn't have a limit on their range.
Quote: | Our directors teach us to learn the lower register first. And of course this was the way that they were taught. Indeed a certain amount of students will succeed this way. Yet some 99% of them will have a serious limitation in the range. A ceiling in sound. As the direct result of this inferior teaching method.
This is excuseable if only because,
A. Directors don't know about the Stevens-Costello system that essentially guarantees that the student eventually learns the complete range on the instrument. And,
B. The director will find all of his woodwinds and most of the low brass improving just fine. This will be tempted to tell the young trumpets to blow lots of fat, loud, lower tones. Ruining their chances to develop the complete range. |
You make this assertion that conventional teaching where a student accesses the lower register first is all wrong - again, based on what?
Forget a "host" of beginners who started out with what you claim is a superior methodology, you can't even name *one*. You won't even put up an example of your own playing with two or three years of this methodology - the obvious conclusion is it hasn't worked all that well for you.
You give all the signs that your ideas are based purely on some variety of wishful thinking. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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trumpetteacher1 Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3404 Location: Garland, Texas
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:36 am Post subject: |
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RobertP, I think that your arguments have grown increasingly dogmatic. You are pulling some of his words out of context merely to score points. For example, when he mentions "range limitation," he is clearly talking about the very common D/Eb ceiling that most players hit when trying to expand the range via conventional methods.
Lionel is a legitimate lead player. I have heard him play. I have even played on one of his homemade mouthpieces. Lionel and I have widely diverging political views, but our musical views are more similar than not.
In his exuberance for Costello, Lionel makes some points that obviously ruffle feathers. I get the irritation. But the standard that some here are demanding - that he must post examples of himself playing - seems very strange to me. What will that prove? Only that he can play high notes. It says virtually nothing about the usefulness of the Costello system in the formative education years.
The fact is, we will never know - at least, in our lifetime - if starting trumpet players with a diet of upper register will ever work. It simply doesn't fit the current music education model followed by virtually all band directors.
In comparison to Costello, the Balanced Embouchure stuff is relatively tame. And yet, the resistance to it from band directors was clear. For over 20 years, I managed to sneak in enough to help my students overcome most range and flexibility limitations. And my students generally did very well in regional competitions. But for most band directors, that was not good enough. Someday I will share specific stories of unfortunate band director bias, but not today.
Lionel will never be able to prove his assertion. You can debate his assertion, but demanding that he pass some subjective test to make his posts "valid" is just wrong. TH is an information exchange. Let's try to remember that.
Eventually you will hear Lionel play. It will be interesting to see a few people here change the goalposts after that happens, and demand further "proof."
Jeff |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9013 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:38 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for your thoughts, Jeff. I think what's not addressed, though - at least directly-is simply that most readers just tire of a ceaseless, dogmatic, "my way or the highway" approach. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
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peanuts56 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2021 Posts: 229
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Thank you for your thoughts, Jeff. I think what's not addressed, though - at least directly-is simply that most readers just tire of a ceaseless, dogmatic, "my way or the highway" approach. |
Happens a lot unfortunately. I studied with Caruso and one of his students as well. Many years later after a long layoff I took some lessons from Jerry Callet. I never sensed this attitude from Carmine but did from Jerry a bit. I liked Jerry and learned a lot but sometimes found him to be a bit defensive. I'll say this, his double c was the loudest I've ever heard with the exception of Maynard and Faddis.
I've also used Jeff's book and incorporated a little from all three. The thing that helped most was tonguing between the teeth which Jerome and Jeff both advocate. I studied with Jerry in his trumpet yoga years. I had played this way as a kid and my private teacher told me it was a no no.(I had a solid high c at 13.) Tongue behind the top teeth was what he told me to do. It definitely didn't work for me. I know players who do this and play very well but I wasn't able to play the way I had before. Being open to ideas and concepts from several different teachers helped me immeasurably. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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peanuts56 wrote: | ... Being open to ideas and concepts from several different teachers helped me immeasurably. |
---------------------------------------------
Yes, a big part of learning is the ability to GET (understand, be able to produce) the concepts that the teacher is supplying.
With in-person lessons there can be good connection between the teacher and student. With 'instructional material' the connection is weaker, and there is more opportunity for the the 'message' to not be received.
And the student has a responsibility to take an active part in receiving the message - sometimes that can take a lot of effort itself! _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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trumpetteacher1 wrote: | RobertP, I think that your arguments have grown increasingly dogmatic. You are pulling some of his words out of context merely to score points. For example, when he mentions "range limitation," he is clearly talking about the very common D/Eb ceiling that most players hit when trying to expand the range via conventional methods.
Lionel is a legitimate lead player. I have heard him play. I have even played on one of his homemade mouthpieces. Lionel and I have widely diverging political views, but our musical views are more similar than not.
In his exuberance for Costello, Lionel makes some points that obviously ruffle feathers. I get the irritation. But the standard that some here are demanding - that he must post examples of himself playing - seems very strange to me. What will that prove? Only that he can play high notes. It says virtually nothing about the usefulness of the Costello system in the formative education years.
The fact is, we will never know - at least, in our lifetime - if starting trumpet players with a diet of upper register will ever work. It simply doesn't fit the current music education model followed by virtually all band directors.
In comparison to Costello, the Balanced Embouchure stuff is relatively tame. And yet, the resistance to it from band directors was clear. For over 20 years, I managed to sneak in enough to help my students overcome most range and flexibility limitations. And my students generally did very well in regional competitions. But for most band directors, that was not good enough. Someday I will share specific stories of unfortunate band director bias, but not today.
Lionel will never be able to prove his assertion. You can debate his assertion, but demanding that he pass some subjective test to make his posts "valid" is just wrong. TH is an information exchange. Let's try to remember that.
Eventually you will hear Lionel play. It will be interesting to see a few people here change the goalposts after that happens, and demand further "proof."
Jeff |
Challenging someone to back up their assertions isn't being dogmatic - it's challenging *their* dogma. Maybe a word like "strident" is what you're looking for - lol.
Okay so you and Lionel are buds so you're white knighting for him and refuse to hold him to the standard of substantiating anything he says.
You say Lionel is a good lead player. I don't know anything about Lionel other than what I see him post here.
Maybe he's a great guy - it doesn't change that I have issues with what he's posted here.
Quote: | when he mentions "range limitation," he is clearly talking about the very common D/Eb ceiling that most players hit when trying to expand the range via conventional methods. |
Really? What makes it clear that your interpretation is what he means when he makes unqualified statements that sound like promotional copy? I haven't seen him make any such clarification. Personally if I want to set parameters of what I'm talking about, I clarify them.
As a matter of fact I've made commentary about range development, embouchure alterations and clarified what I mean. I've never used terminology like "unlimited" in relation to gains I've made.
The core of my "argument" remains unchanged from my first response in the other thread where Lionel made these points. I outlined his assertions and have asked him what he bases it on. I think he's had lots of opportunity to clarify terms. He can still do it - why does he need you as a proxy?
Lionel doesn't just say "here's what I've been doing" - he additionally veers off into these sweeping proclamations related to a particular methodology in addition to denouncing other methods - which you interestingly don't declare to be "dogmatic" - you *do* apparently feel like it's unreasonable to ask - "so what are you basing this on?"
He holds up a particular performance as a gleaming example of this methodology at work. Says it's on par with Maynard in his prime. Based on any example I've heard including the one Lionel points to I don't think the particular player he's referring to on his best day was in the same universe as Maynard. This kind of hyperbole doesn't enhance his credibility.
Quote: | TH is an information exchange. Let's try to remember that. |
I see an important difference between exchanging information and posting verbiage. I see a definite potential downside to having one mistaken for the other by the unwitting.
If someone makes their thoughts public it's reasonable to expect to have them scrutinized, just like you're scrutinizing my comments. I can live with the fact that you feel my inquiries are unreasonable. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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so what Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2004 Posts: 617 Location: near Dallas
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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Say Robert,
I'm sure that you are probably a good trumpet player, although I've never heard you play.
I do not think that Lionel is saying at all that this is the only way to play the trumpet. He is saying that, hey, maybe it is good idea to start off in a way than gives you all the notes. Then you have to learn how to control them and figure out what the hell to do with the (ie, make music).
He is just saying that this is a good idea, and that it is working well for him, and maybe it is worth trying.
So, Robert, buzz off! The past is the past. Maybe this is a way to do it better. Have an open mind for a minute or two Robert. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9013 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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I guess I need remedial Reading Comprehension 101. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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so what wrote: | Say Robert,
I'm sure that you are probably a good trumpet player, although I've never heard you play.
I do not think that Lionel is saying at all that this is the only way to play the trumpet. He is saying that, hey, maybe it is good idea to start off in a way than gives you all the notes. Then you have to learn how to control them and figure out what the hell to do with the (ie, make music).
He is just saying that this is a good idea, and that it is working well for him, and maybe it is worth trying.
So, Robert, buzz off! The past is the past. Maybe this is a way to do it better. Have an open mind for a minute or two Robert. |
I'm chuckling at you people who feel a compulsion to put spin on what someone else has said. What Lionel has said is visible for all to see and that's what I'm going with as representing *his* actual thoughts.
Quote: | He is saying that, hey, maybe it is good idea to start off in a way than gives you all the notes. |
"All the notes" eh? Interesting.
You apparently feel unmotivated to question whether this notion represents something attainable in the realm of reality. My response hasn't changed - show me examples that it does.
I'm also chuckling at you starting out trying to soft-soap me then finish off trying to pop me with a rolled-up verbal newspaper - .snicker
Quote: | I'm sure that you are probably a good trumpet player, although I've never heard you play. |
Whatever kind of player I am I'm enthusiastic. This is something I did - added myself to a recording by a talented singer I'm acquainted with. Now you've heard me play. You might want to put the volume at half to start with, it's mastered fairly robustly.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1I5a3fgEaoisyI1tVLP9iXFrenIGT8A0v/view?usp=sharing
My response to any more "come to the rescue of Lionel" posts is going to be "okay". _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
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Chinese Flugel
Last edited by Robert P on Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | I guess I need remedial Reading Comprehension 101. |
Lol! _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
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steve0930 Veteran Member
Joined: 07 May 2018 Posts: 191
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Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:03 am Post subject: |
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Hello Trumpet Players
I was in Rome with my Number 1 supporter last week and bought a magic trick for 35e. I hope to impress over Christmas (not sure my trumpet rendition of Silent Night is going to do the trick..)
Jeff is being unduly modest here.
Quote: | In comparison to Costello, the Balanced Embouchure stuff is relatively tame |
I would substitute the word "magic" for "tame"
You could make the case for making Balanced Embouchure (BE) both Judge and Jury in this debate - given that BE exercises let you start both high and low and then give responsibility for your intuitive self ("self 2" for readers like Kehaulani of Inner Game of Tennis) to work out the optimal embouchure for you. Sim Sala Bim!
But I realize this is not the BE forum so I will stop here.
Too soon to say Merry Christmas but warmest wishes to all who have participated in this thread
Steve - stay - safe - in Helsinki _________________ My Number 1 supporter
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trumpetteacher1 Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3404 Location: Garland, Texas
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Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:04 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Thank you for your thoughts, Jeff. I think what's not addressed, though - at least directly-is simply that most readers just tire of a ceaseless, dogmatic, "my way or the highway" approach. |
I understand your feelings, but I also think that you are misunderstanding the intent behind Lionel's posts.
His is chronicling his progress in real time. This is primarily for his own benefit. He is not asking for feedback or advice. Mostly, it is a pep talk for himself.
Lionel: "My words or essays here explain a blueprint. That and present an archive of how I'm learning high notes. The complete range on the horn. Perhaps these notes will only be valuable to me. Yet it has been my intent to create a chronicle of my struggles and successes during this three year period. Of which I'm two years into."
That said, I am not a fan of players sharing constant updates of progress on the internet. Players who do this start with a certain degree of conviction in their approach, which typically withers over time as self-proclaimed "skeptics" chime in. To me, it is hard enough making progress on trumpet with our own doubts, without adding the doubts of others.
I assume that you would prefer that Lionel wait for higher levels of consistency and achievement before posting anything. I agree. But his personality is very different from mine. This approach makes total sense to him. And so, rather that heap skepticism upon a player who is in a rather fragile psychological state of development, I prefer to just let him ramble. I would treat any player the same in a similar situation.
That said, I believe that he will eventually achieve success with this approach. If he says that he is having days when double C's are coming out easy, I believe him. I have a video of Lionel playing Over the Rainbow, starting on a high C. He is not blowing smoke.
Having worked in the public education trenches for over 20 years, I also know that Steven's version of Costello will likely never be embraced by most band directors, for a lot of reasons which have already been discussed here by Shaft and others (and yes, even Robert). However, the possibility that it could work in some form is a different question. My own experience implementing BE in the public schools gives me a different frame of reference than most. I have had 14-year-olds pull the horn out of the case and start cold on a high C. This just fries the band director's minds. But when kids are trained properly, this is not in the least difficult, and among other things, it trains kids to not be afraid of high notes.
Finally, as a general comment not directed at anyone - at times, everyone is skeptical about something. But people who pridefully preen in their skepticism are in a different category. For more on this, I invite people to read the article on my website, Skeptics and the Denial of Evidence, on the Resources page.
Jeff |
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