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deleted_user_587aaec
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 Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:57 am Post subject: Re: Balanced Practice |
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Goodbye.
~ R
Last edited by deleted_user_587aaec on Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:44 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Billy B
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Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 6130
Location: Des Moines
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Balanced Practice |
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| rileyconley wrote: | | Billy B wrote: | | rileyconley wrote: | | Billy B wrote: | | mr_guilbeau wrote: | | Hey, folks! I am experiencing a strange rut with my practice time. There's a practice clash with family, life, lessons, ensembles, GA duties, and other usual obstacles that I have not struggled with until recently. I can typically get my fundamentals covered in the morning, but struggle beyond that. I feel like I may be spending too much time on fundies and losing time on music development/preparation. Not to say that anything is going down the drain, but certainly notice a balance deficiency. Getting some good help from my teacher, just curious as to what you all might have to say about balancing your practice time. Any routine tips or structural techniques that have helped you with these problems? Thanks! |
How much do you practice?
How much do you think you should practice? |
A perhaps better set of questions:
What are you good at? What are you bad at?
How much do you get done in your practice?
How much do you want to get done in your practice?
As a side note, based on some slightly disturbing stuff that I’ve read above: please please PLEASE don’t get wrapped up in the idea that if you aren’t practicing 10-12 hours a day that you can’t be a professional trumpet player. Often times the folks who say “Well *I* used to practice 8 hours a day” were likely wasting 6 of them. Efficiency of time spent is WAY more important than strictly the amount of time you’ve practiced. Smarter not harder. Quality > quantity
~ R |
Are you a professional trumpet player? |
Yes? Why else would I offer advice? I had a feeling that this question might come up, since a lot of people on TH assume that someone offering legitimate and well-intentioned advice has no clue what they're talking about (which sometimes is the case). However, if my credentials are being questioned, even though I would rather keep them private, I will defend them quickly.
I'm a 2020 MM graduate of The Colburn School, where I studied with Jim Wilt (or as you all know him, Mr. Clean) - I just recently started my first job as the trumpet professor at a university in Ohio, and I'm a freelance orchestral player in the area while continuing to take auditions. Is that satisfactory?
~ R |
So you would have no problem stepping into an LA studio or a Broadway pit?
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deleted_user_587aaec
New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: Balanced Practice |
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Goodbye.
~ R
Last edited by deleted_user_587aaec on Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Billy B
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 6130
Location: Des Moines
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: Balanced Practice |
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| rileyconley wrote: | | Billy B wrote: | | rileyconley wrote: | | Billy B wrote: | | rileyconley wrote: | | Billy B wrote: | | mr_guilbeau wrote: | | Hey, folks! I am experiencing a strange rut with my practice time. There's a practice clash with family, life, lessons, ensembles, GA duties, and other usual obstacles that I have not struggled with until recently. I can typically get my fundamentals covered in the morning, but struggle beyond that. I feel like I may be spending too much time on fundies and losing time on music development/preparation. Not to say that anything is going down the drain, but certainly notice a balance deficiency. Getting some good help from my teacher, just curious as to what you all might have to say about balancing your practice time. Any routine tips or structural techniques that have helped you with these problems? Thanks! |
How much do you practice?
How much do you think you should practice? |
A perhaps better set of questions:
What are you good at? What are you bad at?
How much do you get done in your practice?
How much do you want to get done in your practice?
As a side note, based on some slightly disturbing stuff that I’ve read above: please please PLEASE don’t get wrapped up in the idea that if you aren’t practicing 10-12 hours a day that you can’t be a professional trumpet player. Often times the folks who say “Well *I* used to practice 8 hours a day” were likely wasting 6 of them. Efficiency of time spent is WAY more important than strictly the amount of time you’ve practiced. Smarter not harder. Quality > quantity
~ R |
Are you a professional trumpet player? |
Yes? Why else would I offer advice? I had a feeling that this question might come up, since a lot of people on TH assume that someone offering legitimate and well-intentioned advice has no clue what they're talking about (which sometimes is the case). However, if my credentials are being questioned, even though I would rather keep them private, I will defend them quickly.
I'm a 2020 MM graduate of The Colburn School, where I studied with Jim Wilt (or as you all know him, Mr. Clean) - I just recently started my first job as the trumpet professor at a university in Ohio, and I'm a freelance orchestral player in the area while continuing to take auditions. Is that satisfactory?
~ R |
So you would have no problem stepping into an LA studio or a Broadway pit? |
Wouldn’t most players consider the LA studio and Broadway pit challenging? I would work my tail off to play whatever was put in front of me. Would you? Let me know which films and broadway shows that you have played on, and I’ll be sure to apologize. I’m not going to fight for legitimacy on this forum when you have no idea who I am, where I play, etc. I’m not surprised that the majority of pros have either left this forum or never want to post. I’ll be headed that way soon, if you want to continue your pissing contest.
My sincere apologies to the original poster, who came here looking for legitimate advice and unfortunately had their subject sidetracked by some random player who wants to wave their so called “reputation” around like a phallic representation of their egotism.
Cheers,
~ R |
Sorry fella, but you're the one who cam on here dissing people. PH is a well respected and well informed pedagogue. When he says it takes 10-12 hours to reach professional level he knows what he's talking about. Hours on the trumpet, hours studying style and interpretation, transcribing, etc.
The OP is having trouble meeting goals with the time available to him. It's a legitimate question to ask just how much time he has to devote to trumpet.
Efficiency in practice? Really? DUH! The OP appears to be in grad school under the tutelage of a teacher. I think he probably understands that.
Get the chip of your shoulder and maybe listen to some folks with experience.
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deleted_user_587aaec
New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: Balanced Practice |
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Goodbye.
~ R
Last edited by deleted_user_587aaec on Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:30 pm; edited 7 times in total |
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Trumpjerele
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Joined: 20 Feb 2019
Posts: 169
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Riley Conley for expressing your point of view, from what I have read in other threads, sometimes it is not easy to disagree with some members of this forum. But this conversation was about balancing time to practice the fundamentals and the music. God or the devil forgive me, 2/3 of fundamentals and 1/3 of music seems disproportionate to me.
PH introduced the subject of practice time. anyway he spoke of a pre-professional era. I do not know if 2, 3 or 4 years, of course he did not refer to a lifetime doing that heroism of 10 or 12 hours of daily practice.
_________________
Notice!!! Amateur musician without formal studies
Trumpet: Yamaha 8310Z
Mouthpiece: the great Yamaha11b4
Sax tenor: Yamaha YTS 23
Mouthpiece: Otto link tone edge |
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deleted_user_587aaec
New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Goodbye.
~ R
Last edited by deleted_user_587aaec on Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:20 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Trumpjerele
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Joined: 20 Feb 2019
Posts: 169
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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Antonio Lizana is a Spanish saxophonist that I really like, in an interview on the radio, they asked him about the hours dedicated to the instrument, I remember him saying that in the years he was doing the conservatory of modern music (4 years), if not he was sleeping, eating, or moving from one place to another, he was studying music. obviously many things around the sax, not always with the reed in the mouth.
Regarding the proportions, it is possible that this is indeed the case, but as an amateur, it pains me to have chosen such a demanding instrument in that sense. I attended a talk by another Spanish saxophonist, Perico Sambeat, I remember that he organized a routine of 4 hours, enough for a professional musician, minus 15 minutes dedicated to long notes, the rest of the time was working on musical things.
_________________
Notice!!! Amateur musician without formal studies
Trumpet: Yamaha 8310Z
Mouthpiece: the great Yamaha11b4
Sax tenor: Yamaha YTS 23
Mouthpiece: Otto link tone edge |
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deleted_user_587aaec
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Joined: 03 Apr 1996
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Goodbye.
~ R
Last edited by deleted_user_587aaec on Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:20 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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JoseLindE4
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 791
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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On the subject of practice time, Louis Davidson’s Trumpet Profiles catalogs the practice habits of a number of notable trumpet players. The responses varied widely and the question of what counts as practice or working on growing as a musician is undefined. Generally it seemed like jazz players spent more time practicing during their student days than classical players. I always attributed this to the volume of material that has to be essentially committed to memory for a jazz musician.
One of my college teachers pointed out to me that a great many virtuosos of all instruments seemed to have a 5ish year period of obsessive practice. Again, what constitutes practice/growing as a musician was somewhat undefined. Then implication, that I took to heart, is that college/grad school is that time. Invest in yourself and take your best shot at it to see what you can do.
The common thread is that most successful musicians have had a multi-year period where their life was built around constantly growing as a musician. Some (a lot), but not all, of that work is on the horn. Listening, singing, piano practice, studying, reading, etc. all contribute to growth as a musician.
On the issue of balance of fundamentals vs. music, a good portion of practice needs to be dedicated to tone production — you need a reliable system to maintain and grow — but my best way out of a rut is to dig out old or new etudes. Applying technical challenges and fundamentals in a musical context can reinforce the connection between technique and music. Whenever I’m in a rut, I’ll pick an etude book and spend a week or two working through it. It’s fun, it challenges me in different ways, and it reminds me that I’m a musician first and a trumpet player second.
For the majority of my practice life though, I’m roughly on team 1/3 tone production, 1/3 technique, 1/3 literature/music. To borrow a concept from Craig Morris, double reed players spend an insane amount of time making and altering reeds; a good reed is the key to good tone production; we are our own reed, so we need to constantly refine our production. Of course, your fundamentals can be treated musically as well. |
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deleted_user_587aaec
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Joined: 03 Apr 1996
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| JoseLindE4 wrote: | On the subject of practice time, Louis Davidson’s Trumpet Profiles catalogs the practice habits of a number of notable trumpet players. The responses varied widely and the question of what counts as practice or working on growing as a musician is undefined. Generally it seemed like jazz players spent more time practicing during their student days than classical players. I always attributed this to the volume of material that has to be essentially committed to memory for a jazz musician.
One of my college teachers pointed out to me that a great many virtuosos of all instruments seemed to have a 5ish year period of obsessive practice. Again, what constitutes practice/growing as a musician was somewhat undefined. Then implication, that I took to heart, is that college/grad school is that time. Invest in yourself and take your best shot at it to see what you can do.
The common thread is that most successful musicians have had a multi-year period where their life was built around constantly growing as a musician. Some (a lot), but not all, of that work is on the horn. Listening, singing, piano practice, studying, reading, etc. all contribute to growth as a musician.
On the issue of balance of fundamentals vs. music, a good portion of practice needs to be dedicated to tone production — you need a reliable system to maintain and grow — but my best way out of a rut is to dig out old or new etudes. Applying technical challenges and fundamentals in a musical context can reinforce the connection between technique and music. Whenever I’m in a rut, I’ll pick an etude book and spend a week or two working through it. It’s fun, it challenges me in different ways, and it reminds me that I’m a musician first and a trumpet player second.
For the majority of my practice life though, I’m roughly on team 1/3 tone production, 1/3 technique, 1/3 literature/music. To borrow a concept from Craig Morris, double reed players spend an insane amount of time making and altering reeds; a good reed is the key to good tone production; we are our own reed, so we need to constantly refine our production. Of course, your fundamentals can be treated musically as well. |
Perfectly said (and that's an awesome book).
~ R |
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 5860
Location: New Albany, Indiana
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| PH wrote: | | In pre-professional years, the balanced life is a fiction for most successful trumpet players. Fit in what you can after you spend 10-12 hours 7 days a week working on your playing. Or choose a different career focus. |
In the old days serious players could put in this kind of work for 4 or 5 years during their late teens and early twenties, get some kind of entry level gig and then learn on the job. These days gigs are far harder to come by where the other musicians and music are at a high enough level and rehearsals and performances are frequent enough to really produce dramatic growth. And there are a lot of players in line for those opportunities. Music schools have taken up the training and experience phase that used to be handled on those first professional gigs.
So now, that period of going to school plus hitting the horn for hours a day lasts anywhere from 6-10 years. This means many hours a day in the practice room, lots of rehearsals, as many performances as you can muster, plus studying theory, gaining aural skills, learning the repertoire, style, history, EXTENSIVE listening. This leaves little time for much else, but that is how the career works.
The OP said he had a GA, which implies to me that he is in graduate school for music, has serious career aspirations, and should be one of the people in the studio who sets standards for others with regard to performance skills and work ethic. Assuming this is all correct, it is not fair to tell him that he can expect success in the profession without spending his 20s (at least) really putting in the sweat equity. If he doesn't do it, that is truly his problem. And it isn't fair to family or others who are investing in his eventual success. Practice an hour or two a day and go play golf. There are dozens of people at Eastman, IU, Rice, Miami, Juillard, etc. who are working the way Billy and I are describing and they will be the ones winning the auditions.
As Bill Adam often said, "I wish there was an easier way. If someone could invent a magic pill they would be a millionaire."
_________________
Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
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deleted_user_587aaec
New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Goodbye.
~ R
Last edited by deleted_user_587aaec on Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:07 am; edited 4 times in total |
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 5860
Location: New Albany, Indiana
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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The previously mentioned Davidson book showed that, interestingly, the jazz musicians practiced approximately twice as much on average as the classical players. I suspect (as did the previous poster) that that is because there is a lot more memorization involved, plus the need to develop more theory and harmony knowledge, arranging skils, etc.
And as I recently wrote in another thread, professional trumpeters, regardless of style or genre, will often have long work days with a rehearsal or sound check followed by a full performance that same day. Back when I was doing more performing than teaching, it was not unusual for a saturday to include two or even three gigs, each lasting 3 or 4 hours. If one wants to finish a 5 or 6 hour work day (let alone an eight hour work day) with something left in the tank, it is unrealistically optimistic to think you could get away with less face time than that on days where you are only practicing.
_________________
Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com
Last edited by PH on Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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deleted_user_587aaec
New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Goodbye.
~ R
Last edited by deleted_user_587aaec on Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:30 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 5860
Location: New Albany, Indiana
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| rileyconley wrote: | ...
Is this strictly the experience in jazz? I know that Bud Herseth talked about "practicing heavy on light weeks, and practicing light on heavy weeks". Keeping things in balance for the workload.
~ R |
Not at all. It is not at all unusual to do a rehearsal the day of a show (especially for pops concerts) that might include running the entire show with the guest artist, a dinner break, and then the gig. This can be harder if the sound is not good (especially problematic for some outdoor concerts) and if some genius decided it would be cool to also do 1812.
It's largely a matter of metal and physical conditioning.
_________________
Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com |
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Jason Rogers
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Joined: 25 Nov 2021
Posts: 101
Location: Salisbury, MD
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:45 am Post subject: Balanced Practice |
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It depends on what your goals are in the trumpet world!
Practice in 20 to 30 minute intervals throughout the day!--This serves to pace your mind and physical ability without braking you down!
New students probably spend a significant time (and should) on "fundamentals" i.e. arban's scales, clarke technical studies etc---these are good for everyone!
Shape your studies on fundamentals based on your overall goals!
Going to be a well rounded performer?---practice sight reading in every genre of music.
Practice improvisation; prepared solos (i.e. Halsey Stevens Sonata); broadway shows; orchestral parts and excerpts; marches; challenge yourself by preparing a youtube video recording aiming for "perfection?"
Practice duets and in ensembles to prepare and train your intonation skills!
If your goal is to become proficient at sight transposing then diligently practice this skill. I like to use Mark Ponzo's The Complete Sight Reading Etude Collection for Trumpet to practice both sight reading and transposing. Everyday give attention to sight reading your selected etude using the following transpositions: up a Major 2nd; up a Major 3rd; up a minor 3rd; up a perfect fourth; up a perfect fifth; (maybe up an Augmented 4th); down a Major 2nd; down a minor 2nd...help me if I left one out. Everyday practice mentally switching clef signs for your music. Become an expert at applying treble, bass, and alto clefs in multiple situations.
Plus practice a different orchestral work everyday to apply your sight transposition skill.
Example: My recent personal practice was to learn Trumpet 1 and 2 of Bernstein's Overture to Candide. The part is for Bb trumpet ...but I practiced it for C trumpet as well.
Take time to completely and confidently learn an orchestral part (i.e. a Mahler Symphony) but also sight read orchestral parts everyday!!!
Another excellent transposition etude book is The Orchestral Trumpeter by Richard Stegmann...it is still available through qpress.
Do what I just suggested for a year and you will become a monster orchestral player at transposing.
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