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Martin T3460 kenosha or Selmer 80J



 
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thekid777
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:09 am    Post subject: Martin T3460 kenosha or Selmer 80J Reply with quote

Hi T.H!
what would you do?
which one would be the one to get?
thank you
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never played either. The Selmer Chorus 80J certainly seems to be the more sought after of the two, but that has no bearing on which might be better for you. If you are interested in the Martin, talk to Jim Becker at Osmun Music. I believe they offer a bell replacement for that horn to make it much closer to the original Committee. If you are interested in the Selmer, the Steve Dillard (aka The Horn Trader) is quite familiar with them.
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Tony Scodwell
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:58 am    Post subject: Kenosha Martin Reply with quote

I was around the Holton/LeBlanc company a good deal of time and my good friend Sandy Sandberg had left Getzen to work with them on some exiting new projects, among them a re-creation of the Martin Committee model.

They had to reverse engineer the Martin and Larry Ramirez was the head designer for the company in addition to being a fine jazz trumpet player. Larry worked with Miles personally to get the horn correct (in Mile's view) and the horn went into production being made with the precision Holton/LeBlanc was noted for. Vito Pascucci owned the company and the Martin brand was in his portfolio. Vito was a very quality minded individual and the instruments his company produced were top level. Vito's son Leon was in charge of designing advertising, cases and I presume the various colored lacquers used on the Martin along with the gold inlay engraving. Good stuff.

Larry did design work on the Holton MF horns played by Maynard Ferguson for many years and pretty much copied the Bach Strad with a Holton model. He did a cornet as well and his input on the Martin produced a really fine trumpet. Not many come up for sale and collectors seem enamored by them. I wonder if the current fascination with the old Martin Committee's would be as prevalent if Chris Botti was playing an old Selmer instead?

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwell@gmail.com
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dayton wrote:
If you are interested in the Martin, talk to Jim Becker at Osmun Music. I believe they offer a bell replacement for that horn to make it much closer to the original Committee.

I actually had Osmun do this conversion some years ago on a T3465 that I purchased on eBay. Frankly, I don't think it was an improvement -- the old Martin bell made the horn play 'thick', overly dark, and less 'agile'. My first reaction was, "Well, I guess it would be good for playing slow hymns in church." The bell seems (to me) to be too heavy and out-of-balance with the Larry Ramirez redesign. I still have the original bell and will probably have it reinstalled someday.

I am offering this with a BIG "YMMV" (and a sense of dread that other TH'ers who have this conversion will jump all over me with righteous indignation at my poor taste and impaired judgement . . . as is their custom sometimes ).

(By the way, in case someone thinks that I just don't understand the old Martin sound and playing qualities, I also have a mid-50's medium bore Committee that I think plays just great.)
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Kaelos
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've currently got a T3460 Kenosha up for sale if that's what you decide
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Leeway
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Martin T3460 kenosha or Selmer 80J Reply with quote

thekid777 wrote:
Hi T.H!
what would you do?
which one would be the one to get?
thank you


Which type of T3460 do you mean?

Leblanc made two very different versions of this Model and of the T3465, which very few people seem to be aware of.

I've had so many 'experts' tell me the Trumpet I've played for the last 34 years doesn't exist that I'm reluctant to even mention it.

I've worked out that some things are worth keeping secret, but you can pm me if you are interested.
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

80J hands down.
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Brent
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:56 pm    Post subject: martin Reply with quote

From what I recall, the Holton version of Martin Committees received a lukewarm reception at best. A lot people didn't like them because they were nothing like the older versions. The bell was different, it wasn't a step bore horn, even the reverse lead pipe for the later models wasn't the same. I was the exception to the rule: I actually liked the new ones better. Loved the sound and I have yet to try a step bore horn I've liked. The T3460 was their medium large bore, and the T3465 was a large bore, and lighter weight. I thought the T3460 was better, as the T3465 I had was the most one of the most out of tune pro horns I've ever owned. The T3460 had a darker tone as well, and was easier to play.

I recall saying way back when on the TH forum that I liked the T3460 better than the originals and boy, did I get in trouble!
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've played a Kenosha Committee once and thought it was.... fine. Nothing special. It wasn't a long playtest.

I've played an 80J a few times and every time I've been "Woh, I should really get one of these. What a horn!"

The 80J is a pretty open, free blowing horn.

But, really, like most things, it's down to personal taste.
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Voltrane
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
I've played a Kenosha Committee once and thought it was.... fine. Nothing special. It wasn't a long playtest.

I've played an 80J a few times and every time I've been "Woh, I should really get one of these. What a horn!"

The 80J is a pretty open, free blowing horn.

But, really, like most things, it's down to personal taste.


+1
I had the opportunity to play a 80j a lot of years ago. At this time I unfortunately did not have the money to buy it. Today I still regret it and if I had the opportunity to find a good one, I would buy it, even if I am very happy with my Xeno RGS ( it would not replace the Xeno but I would use the 80j for small jazz combo)
Never played a KC.
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RETrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:57 am    Post subject: Re: Martin T3460 kenosha or Selmer 80J Reply with quote

Leeway wrote:
thekid777 wrote:
Hi T.H!
what would you do?
which one would be the one to get?
thank you


Which type of T3460 do you mean?

Leblanc made two very different versions of this Model and of the T3465, which very few people seem to be aware of.

I've had so many 'experts' tell me the Trumpet I've played for the last 34 years doesn't exist that I'm reluctant to even mention it.

I've worked out that some things are worth keeping secret, but you can pm me if you are interested.


I've got one of these, too. They exist.
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:01 am    Post subject: Re: Martin T3460 kenosha or Selmer 80J Reply with quote

Leeway wrote:
Leblanc made two very different versions of this Model and of the T3465, which very few people seem to be aware of.

RETrumpet wrote:
I've got one of these, too. They exist.

I'm aware of it! I don't own one, but way back when Leblanc first bought Martin from Wurlitzer, I saw a promo sheet for their first version of the Committee trumpet and went down to the Leblanc factory in Kenosha to try one that they had on hand. It looked more like the 'classic' Committee (and probably used some parts acquired from Wurlitzer). It was definitely different from the Larry Ramirez 'redesign'; I do have one of those (a T3465), so I know what they look like too.
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Halflip"]
Dayton wrote:
If you are interested in the Martin, talk to Jim Becker at Osmun Music. I believe they offer a bell replacement for that horn to make it much closer to the original Committee.

I actually had Osmun do this conversion some years ago on a T3465 that I purchased on eBay. Frankly, I don't think it was an improvement -- the old Martin bell made the horn play 'thick', overly dark, and less 'agile'. My first reaction was, "Well, I guess it would be good for playing slow hymns in church." The bell seems (to me) to be too heavy and out-of-balance with the Larry Ramirez redesign. I still have the original bell and will probably have it reinstalled someday.

I am offering this with a BIG "YMMV" (and a sense of dread that other TH'ers who have this conversion will jump all over me with righteous indignation at my poor taste and impaired judgement . . . as is their custom sometimes ).


I would like point out the the T3435 is lacking the telescoping bore of the original Elkhart Martin design. Rather than having a medium bore top tuning slide leg going into a tapered crook expanding to large bore. Starting at the reversed top leg it reaches .465" large bore and continues through the rest of the main tuning slide.

This reminds me of the time Wallace Roney, RIP, present me with a box of Martin parts from different eras including an Elkhart Martin gold brass bell (same shape as the L-bore Committee) to assemble into a trumpet. Having no original tapered crook I proceeded to fabricate a telescoping slide starting with a medium bore reverse tube at the end of the mouthpipe, followed by a medium large crook, ending with the a large bore lower slide before entering the Kenosha Martin T3465 valve set. Upon receiving it back Wallace phoned to inform me he was thrilled with the results. So you see, there's a bit more I was able to accomplish by emulating the original tuning slide design, albeit cylindrically.

I hope this is helpful. Happy Thanksgiving to one and all!
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:


I would like point out the the T3435 is lacking the telescoping bore of the original Elkhart Martin design. Rather than having a medium bore top tuning slide leg going into a tapered crook expanding to large bore. Starting at the reversed top leg it reaches .465" large bore and continues through the rest of the main tuning slide.

This reminds me of the time Wallace Roney, RIP, present me with a box of Martin parts from different eras including an Elkhart Martin gold brass bell (same shape as the L-bore Committee) to assemble into a trumpet. Having no original tapered crook I proceeded to fabricate a telescoping slide starting with a medium bore reverse tube at the end of the mouthpipe, followed by a medium large crook, ending with the a large bore lower slide before entering the Kenosha Martin T3465 valve set. Upon receiving it back Wallace phoned to inform me he was thrilled with the results. So you see, there's a bit more I was able to accomplish by emulating the original tuning slide design, albeit cylindrically.


Just out of curiosity, are you implying by these statements that the original Martin bell conversion you were promoting for Leblanc Martins actually doesn't turn out the way a customer would hope unless you also do a conversion to simulate a tapered main tuning slide? If so, what would you charge for this additional alteration? (I'd like to be thrilled with the results too. )
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halflip wrote:
Just out of curiosity, are you implying by these statements that the original Martin bell conversion you were promoting for Leblanc Martins actually doesn't turn out the way a customer would hope unless you also do a conversion to simulate a tapered main tuning slide? If so, what would you charge for this additional alteration? (I'd like to be thrilled with the results too. )


To answer your question, it's important to share some pertinent information I received in conversations with Larry Ramirez. When making design changes for the Kenosha T3460 and T3465. The first major change was the bell shape, he chose this bell because he felt it had a better scale than the original Committee bell. Second, he used the original M-bore and L-bore Committee leadpipe tapers, but not as you might expect. Larry chose to use the L-bore pipe on the .460" bore model and the M-bore pipe on the .465" bore model. So you see, there's much more to the Kenosha design than meets the eye. I believe changing the upper tuning slide tube to medium .453" bore would be a good start, but also the leadpipe taper as well (assuming your's is the T3465 model). So a new leadpipe assembly with the proper reversed tube installed and finished would run you about $350, give or take.

In the case of Wallace's project, I was faced with having to coming up with a new tuning slide from scratch. Armed with the knowledge I collected over the years from measuring various Elkhart Committee samples, I wanted to combine the original L-bore leadpipe taper with an expanding bore as closely as possible in order to emulate the stepped/tapered crook design. I had no idea until I tried it if it would be successful or not. Fortunately it worked and was just what Wallace had in mind when he gave me a box of loose parts and a bell.

As for 'thick', overly dark, and less 'agile', Wallace like them that way. He had a remarkable ability to play really open horns that most players could not.

My good friend Wayne Tanabe at Yamaha Artist Services NYC shared with me his experience with one of Wallace's Martin Committee trumpets. Upon completion, Wayne had Dave Latozo play test it, and his reaction was the trumpet unplayable. However, when Wallace came in for his trumpet, he picked it up and made it sing. Go figure.
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Last edited by James Becker on Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Jim (if I may call you that) for your extremely helpful answer!

James Becker wrote:
Second, he used the original M-bore and L-bore Committee leadpipe tapers, but not as you might expect. Larry chose to use the L-bore pipe on the .460" bore model and the M-bore pipe on the .465" bore model.

I read about this previously, but forgot about it. Thanks for reminding me!


James Becker wrote:
I believe changing the upper tuning slide tube to medium .453" bore would be a good start, but also the leadpipe taper as well (assuming yours is the T3465 model). So a new leadpipe assembly with the proper reversed tube installed and finished would run you about $350, give or take.

Mine is indeed a T3465 model. I appreciate the suggestions and the ballpark price. Now I have another option to consider besides simply reinstalling the original bell. (I may reach out to you outside of this forum once I decide.)


James Becker wrote:
As for 'thick', overly dark, and less 'agile', Wallace like them that way. He had a remarkable ability to play really open horns that most players could not.

My good friend Wayne Tanabe at Yamaha Artist Services NYC shared with me his experience with one of Wallace's Martin Committee trumpets. Upon completion, Wayne had Dave Latozo play test it, and his reaction was the trumpet unplayable. However, when Wallace came in for his trumpet, he picked it up and made it sing. Go figure.

This is an instructive anecdote. As a strictly amateur hobbyist with an indifferently developed embouchure and mediocre breath support, I don't measure up to "most players" let alone Wallace Roney, so I need all the help I can get!
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