Can I learn to play a shallow mouthpiece?

[mike ansberry]

I have never been able to play a shallow mouthpiece. My lips hit the bottom of the cup. I currently use an ACB 3C.

I've been playing for decades successfully but range and endurance had always been difficult. I've been working the BE method for a couple of years. My endurance has greatly increased and my range has gone up a couple of notes. I have good Eb's all the time. E's and F's are there, but I can't bang them out all night.

I have heard people say that a shallow mouthpiece makes endurance and range easier. The guys I know who play commercial music full time don't play on big, deep mouthpieces.

How can I go about learning to use a shallow mouthpiece?
_________________
Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

A few questions:
1. What have you tried?
2. How long/in what capacity did you play them? (I.e., were they just non-starters or were they okay for some music and not for others?)
3. What shallow mouthpieces do you have at home now?

I read similar posts on here a while back and bought several shallow mouthpieces. I have a kanstul copy of a Monette 5l and also bought one of the kelly screamer's on sale. Both are playable for me. On piccolo, I've also tried Bach 7e, Schilke's picc piece, and a Monette shallow one. Both shallow and smaller are said to help, so I would try finding a piece you can play now and also maybe a "reach" piece that is close, but challenging, and try those. It may be that something like the 7e would work. I also struggle with range above about high c. On piccolo now I am pretty reliable up to the e and I do find that my kanstul makes flexibility and range easier.

[Dayton]

[Trumpjerele]

hello, BE's book talks about mouthpieces. I have also been practicing the BE method for almost 2 years. I do it with my smallest and shallowest mouthpiece, a gr64s. but later, for musical things I prefer the yamaha 11b4.

Just an idea. You can try using a shallow mouthpiece for BE practice and then choose to keep using it or change.
_________________
Notice!!! Amateur musician without formal studies

Trumpet: Yamaha 8310Z
Mouthpiece: the great Yamaha11b4

Sax tenor: Yamaha YTS 23
Mouthpiece: Otto link tone edge

[etc-etc]

This may have to do more with the resistance of the mouthpiece-horn combination. Shallowness of the cup is not the only determinant.

For example, I find that a particular shallow mouthpiece (Yamaha Allen Vizzutti Custom GP) is easy to play when with a particular trumpet (Yamaha 8335LA), and does not match as well other trumpets. Conversely, mouthpieces that match better with other trumpets are more difficult to play with 8335LA.

[Jason Rogers]

Find the mouthpiece that gives you the best response for the instrument and the music you must play.
I had a college instructor that was outstanding on analysing the mechanics of playing (or at least thought he was) but fell short on mouthpiece selection. I was coached away from a 1 1/2 C mouthpiece that I loved and encouraged to move smaller when range and endurance seemed to be an issue. Going smaller (5C) made note accuracy, (splitting notes) tone quality and intonation an issue. Out of college I moved back to the 1 1/2 C and learned that this mouthpiece actually extended my range and endurance, eliminated splitting notes improved tone production and intonation ...of course with the correct mechanics of playing!!!
I encourage all of my high school students to move to the "largest" mouthpiece that they can play on. They enjoy the results! They practice a lot because they enjoy the results! I have a student that demonstrated a double high C (as if that is important ) on his 1 1/2 C.
_________________
Martin Committee 1954
Benge
Bach Stradivarius
Schilke
Getzen

[Vin DiBona]

Can you learn to use a shallow mouthpiece?
Maybe.
As a long time GR dealer, I've learned long ago there are limits to what mouthpieces one can play successfully.
The reason is lip impingement. Trying to "train" your embouchure to fit in a mouthpiece that doesn't have the right alpha angle for you will very likely prove fruitless and frustrating.
I've known a few successful lead/commercial players who use large mouthpieces. The late John Howell used a 1C for his lead work at the old Milll Run Theater in Des Plaines. His upper register was just phenomenal.
Your best bet is to contact a mouthpiece manufacturer and explain what you are trying to accomplish.
You can take the GR questionnaire or contact Pickett, Stork, Curry, Schilke, and other well known manufactures.
Look up Jens Lindemann's mouthpiece "rant" and read what he has learned.

R. Tomasek

[Yamahaguy]

[krell1960]

[kehaulani]

Whatever you do, just be sure to do it gradually.

I was hanging with Ray Triscari one day and he gave me a prototype mpc. to try. Very small. Without any real ramp-up period, I just grabbed it and played it on a gig a few days later.

Before the gig was half up, I noticed something red on my mpc. My lips were bleeding. And because that was the only mpc. I brought that day, I had to keep playing on it.

Afterwards, I had to lay off about four days to let my chops heal and then more days to bring my chops up to where they used to be.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[irith]

I do think it can be learned to an extent. Certainly I am better on smaller mouthpieces when I use them a lot.

But the more dramatic the shift is, the more you're "re-training" your embouchure. If you naturally have a lot of lip in the mouthpiece, it's probably more trouble than it's worth to learn to play a teeny tiny piece right off the bat.

In today's market there are a lot of options for more efficient, commercial style pieces that are accessible for bigger piece players - in GR-speak, ones with lower "alpha angles", giving you the lip room while adding the compression elsewhere in the system.

I'd suggest contacting ACB first with your issues and see if they have a good solution for you.
_________________
Bach, Schilke, Pickett mostly

[Jaw04]

How can I go about learning to use a shallow mouthpiece?

Just spending time with it. Actually playing on the piece for a few days, not just trying it after you've been playing on your 3C all day. You need to get used to the sound, response, and feel.
You could learn to play a shallow mouthpiece just like you could learn to play trombone. It just takes time and energy.

[nieuwguyski]

Since you're a BE student, I'd suggest doing all the exercises on a shallow mouthpiece. Roll-ins should work great, because rolling in minimizes (or eliminates) lip intrusion into the cup. Roll-outs may well present problems, but that may well be the whole point. If you can figure out how to do roll-outs on a shallow mouthpiece you've redefined the range of motion BE is all about.

I would offer that a smaller diameter can help limit lip intrusion. If necessary, even extremely small.
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J. Notso Nieuwguyski

[kehaulani]

If I'm not mistaking, Jeff initially recommended a DeNicola mouthpiece but has modified that because, in his own words, there are many fine mpc makers today. But the size hasn't changed, and I believe the DeNicola was closest to a Bach 10 1/2. I, personally, use a Reeves 40S. The make may change but the goal of a Bach 10 1/2 size hasn't.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[BRM2]

Yes, it is possible to learn to play shallower mouthpieces. I played a Bach 1 Megatone coming out of high school and eventually bored it out to a larger throat. I eventually played on a GR 67 M and Curry 1M because I was asked to play a variety of different styles when I was in the Army Band. I eventually tried a Marcinkewiz E10 B.Findley. This piece was shallow and tight and but seemed to make my range seem closer together (high and low notes). I eventually tried to learn to play on an E13 C. Findley because the rim diameter was larger. I crashed and burned on one of my first gigs using it. Basically, no sound came out at one point. A few years later, I attended a Wayne Bergeron clinic and he played a little bit of "Taps" which sounded beautiful. At that point, I figured it was all sound concept and tried to learn how to use the shallower cup again.

I can tell you that I play completely different then when I was on the Bach 1.

The thing that helped me was to try to play as efficiently as I could. I cannot inhale the whole room and put it through the mouthpiece like I did using the larger mouthpiece. I take in just enough air. Try to play as relaxed as possible as well. There is very little room for error with tight shallow pieces. I do use syllables when I play ala Maggio. I also do not rely on huge breaths for high notes. It is more compression from abdomen and syllables. I had an "aha" moment when I tried to play a high "G" after reading a book from Pops McLaughlin where he stated to take in half as much air prior to trying a high note.

I do have relatively large lips and I think this approach seems to keep my chops out of the cup.

In your post you stated, "I have heard people say that a shallow mouthpiece makes endurance and range easier. The guys I know who play commercial music full time don't play on big, deep mouthpieces."

Shallow mouthpieces will not make range and endurance easier. It will only aid you an achieving the sound you want a little easier (This might aid endurance a little.). I can play high notes on all of my mouthpieces. I have always had endurance issues on all of them as well.

It is not going to matter which mouthpiece you use, you will still need to figure out what technique or drills will help you improve your range and endurance.
_________________
BRM
Van Laar Chuck Findley(silver)
CarolBrass 5000L YST
Marcinkiewicz E13 C. FINDLEY
Lotus 2M (Bronze)
GR 67MS