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$4k+- to spend. Give me suggestions.


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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haven't played the Adams, but it's hard to imagine it will be better than the X-13. From the first time I played the demo at 2016 ITG, I've been knocked out by how easy it is to play. That, to me, is the ultimate test - I want easy after 50 years on the horn.
-Lionel
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ericmpena
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Adams A4 was not what I was looking for. I tried the Select A4 model and felt that the articulations were not responsive or as defined as I need. The slotting was also a bit loose.

Now I’m looking at the Martin Böhme Tumultus, but I haven’t actually seen anyone recommend that horn yet.

Anyone have experience with the Tumultus?
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Goby
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve tried the Tumultus very briefly. It’s a fantastic horn with beautiful design and build quality. Even if people on TH haven’t tried it, it’s the horn of choice for Tanya Darby and Mike Rodriguez. High caliber professional endorsements outweigh forum recommendations 10:1 in my book.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@goby: I also tested the Tumultus and, while I liked the build and all, it is a rather heavy horn and took quite an effort for me to get it to speak. Not saying it is a bad horn at all, but us (well, me) mere mortals could be better off with a less demanding horn. Out of Martins horns, I liked the Clarus best and Martin actually told me he’s never sold a Tumultus to an amateur player. ´Course he does not know who buys the horns in the distributors shops, but he was referring to direct sales from his workshop.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an afterthought to the OP: if he was closer to where I am I’d definitely check out Del Quadro. I once had the chance to play one of his older horns with the heavy bracing and just loved it. From what I read on TH here, his more recent horns must be even better.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried one of DQ's horns recently and it was phenomenal. It felt so easy to play and had an amazingly rich sound.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don’t make me jealous 🥳
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2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
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1977 Conn 6B
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bagmangood
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disclosure: I worked at ACB for over a year

Austin Custom Brass opened up as a Bohme dealer over the summer, and has a video breakdown of the Bohme Tumultus (youtube review)

On a personal note, I always loved playing the A4 (and A4LT) but I never sounded exactly the way I wanted to with it. Fantastic horns, but never quite fit me.

I got a DQ Grizzly last year and well ... I've sold every other Bb I own (other than the one with sentimental value). So ... his stuff is good.
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ericmpena
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the recommendation on Del Quadro. I’m checking out their website now.

As for the Tumultus, it looks like a fantastic horn, but I definitely don’t want something too heavy.

My current horn is 2lb 10oz (1200 grams).
I’ve played a horn that was 3lb 10oz and it was uncomfortable after about 20-30 minutes of holding it.
Ideally I would not want to go more than 3lbs at the most in total weight.

On a slightly other topic, I’ve never been a fan of gold plating…but I do have acidic hands and find that silver plate and lacquer do not hold up well. Is gold plated worth considering in your opinion?
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha, I like gold plating, but think that any brush or matte finish looks just plain ugly. So I’d go for shiny gold plate if I could afford it.

To be honest, however, I have never played a gold plated horn so I can’t say how long the gold plate will hold up - Jon Faddis‘ horn certainly always looked very proper when I saw him live.
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1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
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Irving
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gold plating is a lot thinner than silver since it is much more expensive. I don´t know if gold plating resists wear better than silver or lacquer. It is probably personal, although I wouldn´t bet on it. Maybe you should wipe down your horn after you use it. That would probably make whatever it is plated with last longer.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are we still talking about a horn that will be played predominantly in Mariachi music?
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ericmpena
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Are we still talking about a horn that will be played predominantly in Mariachi music?


Yes. Mariachi is what I play the most. Salsa comes after that.
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jhellerstein
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="austincustombrass"]
Goby wrote:
austincustombrass wrote:
Goby wrote:
There's at least one clear lacquered Coppernicus out there. From what I remember, the materials were the "standard" for Adams, which includes their bronze/nickel block, sterling silver slug on the bell tail, nickel outer slides, and brass inner slides. I think the regular production bells are gold/red brass, but Trent's personal horn is Sterling Silver I believe.


To my knowledge there's never been a clear lacquered Coppernicus. There have been clear Adams A4 double Shepherd's models but those are totally different internal tapers and material differences. It's a totally different instrument... I should know ;-)




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FCAUn1wq9M&t=202s


not quite clear lacquer, but clear enough to see the different metals


That is a tinted lacquer so no. You're not correct on your assessment of the materials.

-T


I owned that particular horn for a couple weeks. I got it in a trade and it wasn't for me so I had the good folks at ACB sell it on consignment. It had been given a gold lacquer brush finish by Tom Green, and the color was intense -- in certain light it looked orange like a basketball. So no, you're not seeing the metal beneath the lacquer in the video, I assure you!
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jhellerstein
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericmpena wrote:
I should be getting my Adams A4 Select tomorrow, but the Edwards X-13 is looking better and better the more I read about it.

I know that the X-13 and A4 are very different horns, but has anyone played both and can give me their opinion?

I’m kinda thinking that if I’m going to spend close to $4k on a custom Adams order (assuming I like the A4 after trialing the Select model), maybe the X-13 would be the better investment for that price. It seems to be overall a more versatile horn.

Thoughts?


I recommend the X-13.

I play-tested an A4 and an X-13 within a couple weeks of each other. I was super excited about the A4's looks online, and when I found a local dealer I drove an hour to try it out. Was quite excited about it.

But I found the A4 to be very idiosyncratic, and not in a way I liked. My recollection is that it felt kind of big and on the tubby side. I bucketed it in my head with the Wild Thing that I had for a few months, as "big and asking me to play differently than I do now".

The same store had an Edwards Gen 3 that I almost bought, but I was heading out to Wisconsin in a few weeks so I waited and tried the X-13 at the factory. Ended up buying it and keeping it. (If you search I have a couple posts from that trip).

By contrast to the A4, the X-13 seems to make everything a bit easier to execute -- very efficient and requires less work than any other horn I've played, but also meets me where I am and if I'm bearing down for whatever bad habits or what have you it doesn't punish me for it.

The valves on both horns are top shelf. The Bauerfeind valveset on the Adams is just awesome (I have it on my Eclipse flugel too), and gives Getzen a run for their money. The valves on the X-13 are awesome too. I really like the wide buttons on the Adams horns, to be honest -- very comfy.

I had a Coppernicus for a couple weeks, and that felt closer to the Edwards X-13 than the A4 did. Like the X-13, Coppernicus is very lightweight to hold, yet has a big warm sound, and is really agile to get around on. As a matter of esthetics and ergonomics, I like the geometry of the X-13 more than Coppernicus -- the wide wrap and shorter length of the X-13 make it a bit more intimate, and I think it looks nicer, but others will differ.

So ... when I was in your shoes a few years back I went with the X-13, and I haven't found an alternative that made me want to replace it.
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Last edited by jhellerstein on Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@jhellerstein.
Just wondering if you had played the Bach Commercial, and if so, how do the two horns (Bach/Edwards) relate to Mariachi playing?
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deleted_user_c11c97e
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Macallan M
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ericmpena
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Joined: 17 Nov 2021
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jhellerstein wrote:
ericmpena wrote:
I should be getting my Adams A4 Select tomorrow, but the Edwards X-13 is looking better and better the more I read about it.

I know that the X-13 and A4 are very different horns, but has anyone played both and can give me their opinion?

I’m kinda thinking that if I’m going to spend close to $4k on a custom Adams order (assuming I like the A4 after trialing the Select model), maybe the X-13 would be the better investment for that price. It seems to be overall a more versatile horn.

Thoughts?


I recommend the X-13.

I play-tested an A4 and an X-13 within a couple weeks of each other. I was super excited about the A4's looks online, and when I found a local dealer I drove an hour to try it out. Was quite excited about it.

But I found the A4 to be very idiosyncratic, and not in a way I liked. My recollection is that it felt kind of big and on the tubby side. I bucketed it in my head with the Wild Thing that I had for a few months, as "big and asking me to play differently than I do now".

The same store had an Edwards Gen 3 that I almost bought, but I was heading out to Wisconsin in a few weeks so I waited and tried the X-13 at the factory. Ended up buying it and keeping it. (If you search I have a couple posts from that trip).

By contrast to the A4, the X-13 seems to make everything a bit easier to execute -- very efficient and requires less work than any other horn I've player, but also meets me where I am and if I'm bearing down for whatever bad habits or what have you it doesn't punish me for it.

The valves on both horns are top shelf. The Bauerfeind valveset on the Adams is just awesome (I have it on my Eclipse flugel too), and gives Getzen a run for their money. The valves on the X-13 are awesome too. I really like the wide buttons on the Adams horns, to be honest -- very comfy.

I had a Coppernicus for a couple weeks, and that felt closer to the Edwards X-13 than the A4 did. Like the X-13, Coppernicus is very lightweight to hold, yet has a big warm sound, and is really agile to get around on. As a matter of esthetics and ergonomics, I like the geometry of the X-13 more than Coppernicus -- the wide wrap and shorter length of the X-13 make it a bit more intimate, and I think it looks nicer, but others will differ.

So ... when I was in your shoes a few years back I went with the X-13, and I haven't found an alternative that made me want to replace it.


Thanks for the info. The X-13 definitely has my attention. I've heard nothing but top notch things about it. The only downside is that Austin Custom Brass told me it's about a 4 month wait to receive one.

I'm going back and forth between the X-13 and Tumultus.

ACB does offer a trial period on each horn, so maybe I should just order one or both and get the waiting process started.
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've really given this a lot of introspection. I think I'd hold onto the horn I've got and take the rest of the money and go to Tahiti.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn


Last edited by kehaulani on Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ jhellerstein: your description exactly matches my experience with the A4. I thought I would like a polished version in clear lacquer from the looks online but when I tested it against a larger series of Bachs, Conns, B&Ss, Yamahas, about 20 instruments in total, the A4 was the one that immediately fell off the the list. Large and tubby describes it pretty well.

As for the X-13 … I’m working on convincing myself to clean out as much stuff as I can (but can’t convince myself to sell the Bach quite yet) to come up with the money to buy one. We'll see …

To the OP: I have recently heard an Adams A9 for the first time. Although it is modeled after the Martin Committee, which I gather is not the quintessential Mariachi and Salsa horn, I really liked the sound. So if you can find one of these, it might be an interesting one.

Plus, I always forget: I once could play my teachers Conn 52B. Great horn, very affordable, too. Compact, brilliant sound, very nice to play and great intonation.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Klier, Curry
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