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Acludwig1 Regular Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2017 Posts: 45 Location: USA
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Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:58 pm Post subject: I got a Buescher Truetone 400! |
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Haven’t been on here in awhile but I bought something pretty darn cool. After browsing FB marketplace I found a lasting for a Buescher trumpet for $100. Turns out it’s a Buescher True Tone 400 (model 225) in what looks like perfect shape. Looks like it just sat in the case for decades without being played. $100 is literally less than the original msrp of $130 lol.
Has anybody played one of these? If so how did it play and did the weird valve block made any difference? I’ll post my feelings on it when it arrives.
https://imgur.com/a/Jc9IuV7
Here’s a picture from the add[/img] |
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TriumphantTrumpeter Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2021 Posts: 135 Location: Scotland
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:04 am Post subject: |
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Not a 400 owner but I bought a pair of 1930's Buescher model 235 Aristocrats and they are the same layout and they play absolutely beautifully and sound very sweet and clear. Mine are 'keepers' and like you I paid essentially no money for them. I paid £430 (I'm in the UK) in total for the pair and, using an online inflation calculator the original new price would have been equivalent to something around £1800. These 'vintage' trumpets are exceptional bargains for instruments that were hand made with skill, care and pride. |
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krell1960 Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2020 Posts: 148
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: I got a Buescher Truetone 400! |
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Acludwig1 wrote: | Haven’t been on here in awhile but I bought something pretty darn cool. After browsing FB marketplace I found a lasting for a Buescher trumpet for $100. Turns out it’s a Buescher True Tone 400 (model 225) in what looks like perfect shape. Looks like it just sat in the case for decades without being played. $100 is literally less than the original msrp of $130 lol.
Has anybody played one of these? If so how did it play and did the weird valve block made any difference? I’ll post my feelings on it when it arrives.
https://imgur.com/a/Jc9IuV7
Here’s a picture from the add[/img] |
Love the Holton Valve oil bottle. How many of us had that in our cases !! |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1925 Location: WI
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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I have one that I had restored by Charlie Melk. It's a really nice player. The main function of the "weird" valve block is to look pretty; it doesn't seem to do much in terms of the way the horn plays (although there is probably a little extra mass in those bottom caps -- that may do something).
Unless the valves are so worn that they leak, you are going to be very pleased with your purchase. You got a real deal! (In fact, even if you have to pay for a valve rebuild, it will still be a great deal.) |
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Acludwig1 Regular Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2017 Posts: 45 Location: USA
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: I got a Buescher Truetone 400! |
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Love the Holton Valve oil bottle. How many of us had that in our cases !![/quote]
I’ve found a few old Holton bottles in with in with the various horns I’ve acquired over the years. Definitely a bit before my time Bc I’m 19. I grew up with Al Cass and Blue juice! |
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Acludwig1 Regular Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2017 Posts: 45 Location: USA
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Halflip wrote: | I have one that I had restored by Charlie Melk. It's a really nice player. The main function of the "weird" valve block is to look pretty; it doesn't seem to do much in terms of the way the horn plays (although there is probably a little extra mass in those bottom caps -- that may do something).
Unless the valves are so worn that they leak, you are going to be very pleased with your purchase. You got a real deal! (In fact, even if you have to pay for a valve rebuild, it will still be a great deal.) |
Yea I don’t know too much about Buescher but I recognized that valve block from one of Trent Austin’s videos and after a bit of research I bought the horn at full price. No point in haggling when the price is already a steal!
As for the valves, there weren’t any pictures of them in the add but the horn looks to be barely used so I’m hoping for a nice set of buttery smooth valves. It’s supposed to arrive tomorrow so keep your fingers crossed! |
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GeorgeB Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 Posts: 1063 Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia
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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:07 am Post subject: |
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I bought a 1942 True Tone 400 ( 225 medium large bore) Buescher from Trent Austin's personal collection. It was in like new condition and has really fast valves. I get a really nice warm tone with it. I love all my horns but the Buescher, along with my 1952 Selmer Paris Medium Bore, are my absolute favorites. I have already been offered twice what i paid for it, but it is not for sale. _________________ GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet |
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TriumphantTrumpeter Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2021 Posts: 135 Location: Scotland
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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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Do the 400's have the same bottom sprung valves as the Aristocrats, like mine, used? I really like how fast and responsive the valves on mine play. Beat my other trumpets hands down for response without being hard to depress. |
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Acludwig1 Regular Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2017 Posts: 45 Location: USA
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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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TriumphantTrumpeter wrote: | Do the 400's have the same bottom sprung valves as the Aristocrats, like mine, used? I really like how fast and responsive the valves on mine play. Beat my other trumpets hands down for response without being hard to depress. |
Yes it does have bottom strung caps. The only issue with it are that 2 of the bottom caps are stuck! Awesome horn otherwise. Sounds great in the upper register. |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1925 Location: WI
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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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Acludwig1 wrote: | TriumphantTrumpeter wrote: | Do the 400's have the same bottom sprung valves as the Aristocrats, like mine, used? I really like how fast and responsive the valves on mine play. Beat my other trumpets hands down for response without being hard to depress. |
Yes it does have bottom strung caps. The only issue with it are that 2 of the bottom caps are stuck! Awesome horn otherwise. Sounds great in the upper register. |
I think you two are getting crossed-up on terminology here. All the Buescher 400's I've seen have top-sprung valves (albeit with a rather unique configuration involving an exposed spring surrounding a rectangular shaft and valve guides with three prongs instead of the usual two). Mine is certainly top-sprung, and I'll be glad to upload a picture if you want. I can also aver that the valves are very fast, responsive, and light (these qualities have nothing particularly to do with being bottom sprung, by the way).
Acludwig1, your response is confusing because you say that your horn has "bottom strung caps". I'm not sure what you mean by that, or if you made some typos. If your horn truly has valve springs that are situated below the pistons, I'd like to see a picture of that. |
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TriumphantTrumpeter Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2021 Posts: 135 Location: Scotland
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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the clarification Halflip. I am surprised that they moved to top sprung as they seem to have made a big thing of the bottom sprung valves of the models throughout the 20's and 30's and I find that they have altogether a different feel in their action compared to my modern, albeit Chinese made, Bach TR650 and my other modern Chinese made trumpet which both have the top spring retained within the upper part of the piston. Would the spring location just be a factor of the layout of the instrument rather than top or bottom being a better placement? |
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Acludwig1 Regular Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2017 Posts: 45 Location: USA
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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Halflip wrote: | Acludwig1 wrote: | TriumphantTrumpeter wrote: | Do the 400's have the same bottom sprung valves as the Aristocrats, like mine, used? I really like how fast and responsive the valves on mine play. Beat my other trumpets hands down for response without being hard to depress. |
Yes it does have bottom strung caps. The only issue with it are that 2 of the bottom caps are stuck! Awesome horn otherwise. Sounds great in the upper register. |
I think you two are getting crossed-up on terminology here. All the Buescher 400's I've seen have top-sprung valves (albeit with a rather unique configuration involving an exposed spring surrounding a rectangular shaft and valve guides with three prongs instead of the usual two). Mine is certainly top-sprung, and I'll be glad to upload a picture if you want. I can also aver that the valves are very fast, responsive, and light (these qualities have nothing particularly to do with being bottom sprung, by the way).
Acludwig1, your response is confusing because you say that your horn has "bottom strung caps". I'm not sure what you mean by that, or if you made some typos. If your horn truly has valve springs that are situated below the pistons, I'd like to see a picture of that. |
My apologies for being misleading. I misread the question and I thought he was referring to the valve caps which screw inside the valve block instead of on the outside of the valve block. I’m not quite sure how I got that mixed up.
My horn has top sprung valve caps. |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:24 am Post subject: |
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My - not quite playable and still unrestored Buescher 400 cornet from 1939 has top sprung valves. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1925 Location: WI
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:27 am Post subject: |
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TriumphantTrumpeter wrote: | I am surprised that they moved to top sprung as they seem to have made a big thing of the bottom sprung valves of the models throughout the 20's and 30's and I find that they have altogether a different feel in their action compared to my modern, albeit Chinese made, Bach TR650 and my other modern Chinese made trumpet which both have the top spring retained within the upper part of the piston. Would the spring location just be a factor of the layout of the instrument rather than top or bottom being a better placement? |
You are making a mistake in judging top-sprung valves by the action on your Chinese-made "student-level" horns. Modern makers use top-sprung valves on their pro trumpets and cornets almost exclusively because they can be engineered to work better (smoother, faster, more reliably) than bottom sprung valves. You need to try a top quality pro trumpet with top-sprung valves to see the difference.
Spring location is a factor in the layout of flugelhorns, however, where you will find modern pro horns with bottom-sprung valve blocks because they allow a more compact 'wrap' of the tubing. |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:51 am Post subject: |
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Halflip wrote: | You are making a mistake in judging top-sprung valves by the action on your Chinese-made "student-level" horns. Modern makers use top-sprung valves on their pro trumpets and cornets almost exclusively because they can be engineered to work better (smoother, faster, more reliably) than bottom sprung valves. You need to try a top quality pro trumpet with top-sprung valves to see the difference.
Spring location is a factor in the layout of flugelhorns, however, where you will find modern pro horns with bottom-sprung valve blocks because they allow a more compact 'wrap' of the tubing. |
That's for sure true.
Almost all good modern trumpets made in the last 90 years have top sprung valves (for a reason) and many of them have exceptional valves.
The 1920's and 1930's were a bit of a transition as far as bottom or top sprung. It's no accident that professional horns all moved to top sprung valves over this period. Some older student and lower level horns or budget eastern European stencil horns remained bottom sprung - this was almost entirely because of lower cost. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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GeorgeB Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 Posts: 1063 Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia
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Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:37 am Post subject: |
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TriumphantTrumpeter wrote: | Do the 400's have the same bottom sprung valves as the Aristocrats, like mine, used? I really like how fast and responsive the valves on mine play. Beat my other trumpets hands down for response without being hard to depress. |
Mine has top springs. _________________ GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet |
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VetPsychWars Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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You stole that horn for $100.
The Model 225 indeed has top-sprung valves with a rare size spring. But, you can adapt the purple stainless springs of the later Buescher trumpets for the Model 225 (and Model 275 cornet) by putting the appropriately-sized O-ring in the grooves where the springs usually go and the purple springs fit over the outsides of those O-rings.
It's a good mod because the springs are stainless-steel constant-rate and last literally forever. Not sure the exact size of the O-ring, call Charlie Melk for that. Same size he uses as third-slide bumpers.
I learned to play on a 1949 Buescher 400 and the intonation of that era of Buescher (and Conn, but don't interchange them, you'll drive yourself nuts) makes the Bach players confused. What do you mean, you lip it in? It's called wide slotting and using your ears!
Tom _________________ 1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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Dieter Z Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jun 2013 Posts: 449 Location: Mountains of North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:19 am Post subject: |
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I've got the same 400 / 225 in Raw Brass. It was given to me by a wonderful guy. Sometimes I use it daily for practicing, but also in the orchestra and for solo playing. Got a wonderful robust sound and is build like a tank. Much better then my other instruments listed below. _________________ B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing |
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