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Endurance across brass instruments



 
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:59 pm    Post subject: Endurance across brass instruments Reply with quote

It seems like trumpet playing causes fatigue quickest. Low brass players seem to be able to play longer and rarely suffer much damage to their chops. However, it would seem to me that playing trombone or tuba would be more taxing than trumpet because of the larger mouthpieces and bores. Trombone is also capable of incredibly fat-loud playing, even more so than trumpet... the kind of playing that is the most fatiguing to me is loud middle register stuff that uses a lot of air. In my own experience dabbling in trombone, trombone wipes me out quickly. Don't larger trumpet mouthpieces fatigue us quicker on trumpet? So wouldn't a trombone mouthpiece be even more taxing during the course of a rehearsal or gig?

So what is going on? Is my assumption that trumpet causes fatigue the fastest accurate and if so why is that the case? Obviously trumpet plays higher which requires a little bit more focused chops, but in my opinion it is dynamic level and length of playing without rests that is the most fatiguing kind of playing, not so much range.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience Brassband playing brings in its train the biggest load - more exactly front row cornet (and soprano, to a certain extent). This because of the lack of pauses - a register that goes from G below low C up to D above high C. The number one chops killer in my experience is the Dam Busters, composed by Eric Coates - four pages full of notes, last page above G with virtually nil pauses - well a semiquaver here and there.
At our concert celebrating the 75:th year of the band´s existence (26 years ago) we started out with a Fanfare composition - the Merry Wives of Windsor(3 pages ripe with semiquavers) (Hawkins arr) - Trumpets Wild (cornet trio; me on top) - the Music of Georg Gershwin (Sharpe) - Fantasia from Carmen (Langford) - Cortège from Mlada (Langford)(Geoffrey Brand conductor) - Pineapple Poll (Sullivan)(Brand cond.) - Concert Prelude (Sparke) (Brand )- Slavonic Rhapsody number 2 (Friedman, D Wright arr) - Pomp and Circumstance number1 (Elgar score Hume). Played twice....
Did I get tired? Yes.
Pro symphonic players sometimes sitting in tell us "this isn´t possible".
And we are a mere middle class band.
Ever been at the Royal Albert Hall? The top bands such as the Cory band - wow - a level of difficulty bordering at the insane, no pauses, the soprano man almost constantly above high C .....

On top of this I do believe that the very special way of playing a cornet also is of some importance; a rather deep mouthpiece, the constant demand of "a dolce/singing quality", from a barely audible pp up to a roaring FF, always articulating, all the time synchronizing within the section (4-5)..
But - playing lead in a big band is demanding - however most of the time the arrangements provide pauses.

As the OP says: it is dynamic level and length of playing without rests that is the most fatiguing kind of playing, not so much range..
I do agree - this is why I consider front row cornet brass band playing as the most taxing.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at the difference in mouthpiece sizes.
The trumpet mouthpiece is the smallest in diameter of all brass instruments. The horn is closest, but they are usually slightly larger in diameter.
There is much less lip area being used which means fewer muscles and flesh are there to support the small mouthpiece which results in much quicker fatigue.
Certainly, there is more to it than that, yet the narrow diameter is the chief reason for quicker fatigue.


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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a good question. I'm learning trombone so it's still hard for me to compare on endurance directly. I agree with both of the preceding comments: (1) higher seems to be more taxing and as the higher brass instrument trumpet is more taxing, and (2) smaller diameter means fewer muscles and more pressure.

I know sometimes trumpet players with chop issues have switched to low brass. My guess is the mouthpiece uses more muscles but can also draw on more muscles (if that makes sense). It also is a larger surface area so pressure is less likely to damage lips/teeth.

I also hear more stories of trumpet players with chop damage/problems, but that may be observer bias (I spend a lot more time with trumpet players than tuba players). I've never had damage or serious setbacks, but I've never been playing 5 hours a day either. I am curious why flugelhorn seems to be less taxing. It's the same amount of tubing and similar mouthpiece size, but feels like less pressure.
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chief757
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say it has to do with tension in the face and mp pressure. I haven't been on th long, but before I made an account I have read a lot of topics and I noticed many people who double trumpet and low brass say they notice it's easier to play on the trumpet after playing the low brass. Just my observation
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’d say it’s easier to double if you have some time for practice and preparation. Initially, when I took up bass trumpet a few years ago, switching from trumpet to bass was OK but not the other way around, because it was hard to fit the lips into the mouthpiece after having played the larger piece.

With practice I did get there and can now change between the two quite easily.

As for the most taxing I also find things that essentially have no breaks quite hard to play - luckily I play in an orchestra with its own arranger so we always have the possibility to let her know when things get hard.

My personal hypothesis why trumpet players quickly go tired and out of tune is that we need to fit our lips into the small mouthpiece and, as the piece is so small, as soon as you lose air control or shift a little in your embouchure, things will rapidly change. A larger mouthpiece like on trombone is slightly more forgiving but you’ll have to watch the intonation.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
In my experience Brassband playing brings in its train the biggest load - more exactly front row cornet (and soprano, to a certain extent).


Believe me, I know next to nobody who's played both sop and solo cornet for any period of time that would deny that sop is a heavier load.
The higher the standard of band, the moreso this becomes - championship section sop playing is not for the faint hearted fullstop.
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spitvalve
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
I’d say it’s easier to double if you have some time for practice and preparation. Initially, when I took up bass trumpet a few years ago, switching from trumpet to bass was OK but not the other way around, because it was hard to fit the lips into the mouthpiece after having played the larger piece.

With practice I did get there and can now change between the two quite easily.


My trumpet embouchure is off-center and doesn't lend itself easily to trombone playing, but in my younger days I worked at it until I could double on the same gig and switch back and forth even in the same tune. Fast forward 35 years and the trombone has been in its case for most of that time. I pulled it out recently just to put it on the stand in my home office next to all my other horns (because it looks really cool to have a bunch of horns out on their stands) and blow a few notes on it every day or two. Done briefly and focusing on relaxing and not using much pressure, it seems to help my trumpet playing a little. If I overdo it on the trombone and try to play stuff like I used to play, then when I pick up the trumpet it feels like my lips are too big for the mouthpiece. Don't know if I'll ever be able to make the time to get back to full doubling, but I can dream...
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
Seymor B Fudd wrote:
In my experience Brassband playing brings in its train the biggest load - more exactly front row cornet (and soprano, to a certain extent).


Believe me, I know next to nobody who's played both sop and solo cornet for any period of time that would deny that sop is a heavier load.
The higher the standard of band, the moreso this becomes - championship section sop playing is not for the faint hearted fullstop.


"To a certain extent" I wrote! I was the soprano man for many years and very seldom my chops went down the drain. More tiresome was the "mental" strain - sometimes you count 23 bars - then you enter with a high A, pianissmo - band´s rather soft, the church is almost quiet, 300 people watching.
But yesterday we had our annual church concert (all of us, including the audience requested to show a "covid passport"). The programme quite heavy. Two concerts, 3 PM and 6 PM, one hour and 20 minutes per show.
Our soprano player admitted becoming rather tired. But he is one of a kind - he has played the euphonium part for some 15 years.....switched this autumn...
You mention the championships.....I was at the RAH when the Cory band won the other year....and their soprano man....Titan´s Progress (Pallhuber) - oh my....
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dershem
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On trumpet I can play anything you want for 1 tune, lead for 2 or 3, section parts for a couple of hours. On trombone, I can play lead for 2 hours, and section parts all day long. On tube, I wear out after a couple of hours. French horn ... an hour and I'm done. It depends on the amount of tension in the face (the percentage of time above the staff) and the amount of air pushed through. Used to be easier when I could practice an hour or three a day and maintain the muscles.
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Rapier232
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like all physical activities they become easier the more you build muscle tone and strength. The CTS (Compression Training System) developed by Larry Mereglliano is worth looking at. It works the muscles required. It’s silent, can be used anywhere and allows you to increase the muscle strength of the embouchure.
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hup_d_dup
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I started as a trumpet player, and still play regularly, but my primary instrument is now tuba.

My experience is that I can get tired after a long or vigorous session on either instrument, but I never feel the discomfort on tuba that I feel on the trumpet. On either horn, my performance will deteriorate, but it does so on tuba without the unpleasant sensations I get on trumpet.

Proper playing, as emphasized in books by Patrick Sheridan & Sam Pilafian, will allow playing for extended periods without discomfort on any instrument. This is what pros need to learn if they want a long career. David Kraus said on this forum (I'm paraphrasing) that the most important thing he learned from Ed Treutel was how to play hour after hour, day after day, week after week.

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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sometimes double on the French Horn and even with only modest time to acclimate, I can pretty much play all day. I did a performance of Les Miserables on the Horn and at the end of the day (see what I did there?) I had absolutely no doubt I could have played another full show without a pause. I've NEVER been able to say that about ANY show on trumpet. My impression is that the trumpet pushes back much more and overcoming that is what's taxing.
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Beyond16
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hup_d_dup wrote:
I started as a trumpet player, and still play regularly, but my primary instrument is now tuba.

Hup


I switch to tuba about 6 months ago. Tuba is way easier for me. Problem is, trying to go back to trumpet. I can't even play a decent single octave scale on trumpet now.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’d love to play tuba but only had a go just before Covid at a fair, where they had a radio symphony basically offering that you could test out all the instruments they had with them. While I really enjoyed the F tuba I found the huge Bb tuba they had with them was quite strenuous to play - needed a lot more air than the F instrument.

On the other hand, I can read bass clef by now, but reading music for F tuba is a whole other beast …

As far as the switching between (in my case) bass trumpet and trumpet is concerned, I did experience what some of you also describe. Going from trumpet to bass is less difficult when starting out than the other way around. The reason is, as some also stated, that initially the lips seem “too large” to fit into the trumpet mouthpiece.

Initially I started out with one day bass trumpet, one day trumpet, and now I try to combine both into one practice session. The key thing I have found it that is easier to overdo it and I absolutely need a good warmup. If I don’t warm up well, I tire quite quickly.

I agree that playing the bass trumpet has been a tremendous help in advancing technically. The bass trumpet mouthpiece allows for more movement of the lips and tongue, so you’ll need to concentrate on holding everything in order but once I have figured out what is going on, I try to transfer it to the trumpet mouthpiece. Also, playing bass trumpet helps with training a good airflow, I found.

One of the most useful things that came up with my teacher this summer is the effect of stance when playing. I have issues with my back, so I don’t typically stand in an optimal position when playing and only now start to practice the way to just stand to be in the best relaxed position.

Combined with the beneficial effects I already have from simply playing trumpet and bass trumpet, the optimized embouchure, tongue position, improved mouthpiece positioning, and air flow it is quite amazing what a a simple (quite a bit of training, actually) change in the way I stand, breathe, and hold the trumpet can add to that.

Playing brass is rather complex, I keep discovering since 1980 (sorry for the long text)
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:

One of the most useful things that came up with my teacher this summer is the effect of stance when playing. I have issues with my back, so I don’t typically stand in an optimal position when playing and only now start to practice the way to just stand to be in the best relaxed position.

Combined with the beneficial effects I already have from simply playing trumpet and bass trumpet, the optimized embouchure, tongue position, improved mouthpiece positioning, and air flow it is quite amazing what a a simple (quite a bit of training, actually) change in the way I stand, breathe, and hold the trumpet can add to that.
Yep, you nailed it.
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