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Spielberg West Side Story


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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. To me, Bernstein often wrote and directed music that I would consider hectic. And that was a result of the complexity combined with the tempos he chose. I would take those tunes/passages at slower tempos to let the lines breathe. Evidently, Lenny's definition of breathe was "pant", LOL. I can only attribute this to style (vs. taste).
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kehaulani,
My remark about Bernstein's unhappiness with Carreras was from an article I read some years back. He had to constantly correct Carreras and there was considerable tension.
Here is an article that does touch the surface of the tension and will give you an idea of Bernstein's relentless correcting.
https://www.classicfm.com/composers/bernstein-l/tense-west-side-story-recording-jose-carreras/
I have this recording and it is a great one, but as great as Carreras was, he really was not right for that role.
Jerry Hadley would have been perfect.
R. Tomasek
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks R. - . I wouldn't be surprised if Lenny was unhappy after the fact, just never heard that he was unhappy aforehand. I thought all the main singers were hand-picked by him, free of interference.
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MrClean
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*None* of the voices were right for the Bernstein project. They’re supposed to be teenagers. It’s ridiculous.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only voice close to teenage was Kurt Ollmann's Biff.
Bernstein remarked there are no teenage opera singers.
R. Tomasek
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
The only voice close to teenage was Kurt Ollmann's Biff.
Bernstein remarked there are no teenage opera singers.

My understanding is that, on this recording, opera was exactly what Bernstein was going for. But a Broadway musical about a bunch of NYC teenagers of very specific ethnicities is not Puccini. I think this was a miscalculation and was ever really comfortable with it.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Vin DiBona wrote:
The only voice close to teenage was Kurt Ollmann's Biff.
Bernstein remarked there are no teenage opera singers.

My understanding is that, on this recording, opera was exactly what Bernstein was going for. But a Broadway musical about a bunch of NYC teenagers of very specific ethnicities is not Puccini. I think this was a miscalculation and was ever really comfortable with it.

I'm guessing that this hits it on the head.
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Daniel Barenboim
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just here to say the "good old days" are highly overrated. The level of playing today is much higher.

DB
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Gottfried Reiche
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daniel Barenboim wrote:
Just here to say the "good old days" are highly overrated. The level of playing today is much higher.

DB


Absolutely. I always chuckle when folks reference Bud with how to play an orchestral excerpt. Bud was no doubt a master, and pretty much the dean of American Orchestral Trumpet Playing. But nobody plays like that anymore. Nobody can win a job playing like that. Nobody can keep a job playing like that. It's simply outdated.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
I agree. To me, Bernstein often wrote and directed music that I would consider hectic. And that was a result of the complexity combined with the tempos he chose. I would take those tunes/passages at slower tempos to let the lines breathe. Evidently, Lenny's definition of breathe was "pant", LOL. I can only attribute this to style (vs. taste).

Your referring to Berstein by the informal Lenny brings to mind a song that I really enjoy.
https://youtu.be/VnWc_UBcE7c
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trahmput
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Vin DiBona"]There are issues with the new recording. Not so much the orchestra, but Dudamel. Bad balance and timing.
Here is the great Wilmer Wise leading the Mambo from Lenny's final recording.
(At one point, Bernstein told the engineers we have a genius first trumpet player back there).
Bernstein did not want Carrera as Tony. Wrong accent for the role and he had considerable trouble with the timing of the songs he sang.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lHASu_Yow4&list=OLAK5uy_kyh_PtmqoWm67RjT6hdIBZ4T1P6HCa50c&index=6
R. Tomasek[/quote]

In the studios the musicians play with a click track, and the conductor conducts along with the click track. Dudamel doesn’t/didn’t set the tempos on the click track. Balance is done in post by the engineers. Notes can be moved/lined up in post. So if you don’t like those aspects, you gotta take that up with the producers, not the players or the conductor.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the conductor doesn't set the tempo and doesn't balance the orchestra. So what does he do? Besides earn the most money in the orchestra? :
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope this is tongue in cheek, but the conductor most certainly does set the tempo and balance. Even if he uses a click tack and balance is manipulated by editing, it's not up to the sound men, necessarily, how to do the manipulation. Doesn't the conductor have the last word anyway?
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robert_white
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daniel Barenboim wrote:
Just here to say the "good old days" are highly overrated. The level of playing today is much higher.

DB


Definitely not applicable to Uan Rasey or Pete Candoli, though.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about:

Manny Klein
Conrad Gozzo
Raphael Mendez
Clark Terry
Mel Broils
Doc Severinsen
Bud Herseth
Pete Candoli
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
I hope this is tongue in cheek, but the conductor most certainly does set the tempo and balance. Even if he uses a click tack and balance is manipulated by editing, it's not up to the sound men, necessarily, how to do the manipulation. Doesn't the conductor have the last word anyway?


This depends on how the music was recorded.

Was the whole orchestra recorded together? Or were various sections recorded separately then their tracks combined and balanced for the final product?
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Speed
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My son, who works in musical theatre on Broadway, tells me that as far as the live show goes, the choreographer has the final word on tempo on the dance numbers. I presume that is inapplicable to a studio recording, though.

Take care,
Marc Speed
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Jason Rogers
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:37 pm    Post subject: Spielberg West Side Story Reply with quote

Gottfried Reiche wrote:
Daniel Barenboim wrote:
Just here to say the "good old days" are highly overrated. The level of playing today is much higher.

DB


Absolutely. I always chuckle when folks reference Bud with how to play an orchestral excerpt. Bud was no doubt a master, and pretty much the dean of American Orchestral Trumpet Playing. But nobody plays like that anymore. Nobody can win a job playing like that. Nobody can keep a job playing like that. It's simply outdated.


Gottfried Reiche does that mean you play better than Herseth? Please share the name of your orchestra. Performing in this day and time in a professional ensemble should be something we all embrace, share and live to be proud of. Please don't hide behind a pseudonym. Share with us examples of your playing.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speed wrote:
My son, who works in musical theatre on Broadway, tells me that as far as the live show goes, the choreographer has the final word on tempo on the dance numbers. I presume that is inapplicable to a studio recording, though.

Take care,
Marc Speed


If there is dancing in the film, it still has to synch with the music. I would imagine that even in the case of films, musical numbers that involve dancing on screen are still controlled by choreography.
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Heim
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Spielberg West Side Story Reply with quote

tptptp wrote:
TMT wrote:
Wayne Bergeron comes in on the solo with his trademark shake a la Maynard.


Better than Maynard, to my ears.


Maybe this would help?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19hDLDvnfJQ&t=6s
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