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Bell Comparator



 
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ChopsMIA
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Joined: 29 Nov 2021
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:33 pm    Post subject: Bell Comparator Reply with quote

Does anyone know of a website or other resource that has the outline/profile of trumpet bells in a similar way to the Kanstul mouthpiece comparator? I've seen posts refefenceing leadpipe comparators but have not found anything regarding bells.

It would be very interesting to be able to compare the taper and flare of bells from the major manufacturers in an overlay. It seems like we still use the Bach 37, 43, and 72 bells as reference points, but it would be interesting be able to overlay a specific Schilke or Yamaha bell to a specific Bach or xyz bell to see the differences. Qualitative descriptors like fast versus gradual tapers are only so helpful.

Just curious.
_________________
1956 Martin Committee Deluxe
Carol 8385L-GLT
Callet Sima
1963 Conn 8B Artist
1977 Kenosha 3460 Committee
Couesnon Monopole Flugel
Conn 38A Connstellation Short Cornet
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shofarguy
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Joined: 18 Sep 2007
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Location: AZ

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: Bell Comparator Reply with quote

ChopsMIA wrote:
Does anyone know of a website or other resource that has the outline/profile of trumpet bells in a similar way to the Kanstul mouthpiece comparator? I've seen posts refefenceing leadpipe comparators but have not found anything regarding bells.

It would be very interesting to be able to compare the taper and flare of bells from the major manufacturers in an overlay. It seems like we still use the Bach 37, 43, and 72 bells as reference points, but it would be interesting be able to overlay a specific Schilke or Yamaha bell to a specific Bach or xyz bell to see the differences. Qualitative descriptors like fast versus gradual tapers are only so helpful.

Just curious.


Back some years, Jim New (Zig Kanstul's son-in-law who worked on their mouthpiece comparator) wanted to develop a bell comparator. about that time, he left Kanstul and now has his own mouthpiece line/custom service. I have no idea if he has gone ahead with the bell comparator or not.

The contour of each bell is a major portion of a brass manufacturer's IP and they usually keep the specs fairly private. Zig insisted that he own all of the tooling, such as bell mandrels, he developed for his customers, since that is the only way to control production over the long term.

Btw, when asked about the Bach 37 bell design, Zig would often reply, "Which one? We know there are at least five and they are all different."

Kanstul had two taper measuring kits that they used to measure bells. They consisted of a range of measured discs that would attach to a measured rod which one could insert into a bell and create a dimensional profile. Dale Olsen showed one of them to me, after Zig had died, and said they are very rare now.
Jim New wanted to use a robotic machine to measure them, as he did for replicating mouthpieces.
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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ChopsMIA
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Joined: 29 Nov 2021
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank You Brian. I did consider the IP issue, but with all of the info that's out in the world, I thought perhaps someone might have measured and analyzed the popular bells anyway.

Also, thanks for the very interesting behind the scenes background on Kanstul. I'm wondering if with the widely available scanning and measurement technologies (like LIDAR) on high end phone cameras will make it easier to make these measurements. For me I was just curious on how similar or different, say Bach and Schilke bells are shape wise. Obviously materials, thickness, heat treatment etc play huge roles as well.
_________________
1956 Martin Committee Deluxe
Carol 8385L-GLT
Callet Sima
1963 Conn 8B Artist
1977 Kenosha 3460 Committee
Couesnon Monopole Flugel
Conn 38A Connstellation Short Cornet
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shofarguy
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Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7003
Location: AZ

PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChopsMIA wrote:
Thank You Brian. I did consider the IP issue, but with all of the info that's out in the world, I thought perhaps someone might have measured and analyzed the popular bells anyway.

Also, thanks for the very interesting behind the scenes background on Kanstul. I'm wondering if with the widely available scanning and measurement technologies (like LIDAR) on high end phone cameras will make it easier to make these measurements. For me I was just curious on how similar or different, say Bach and Schilke bells are shape wise. Obviously materials, thickness, heat treatment etc play huge roles as well.


There was a time, back in 2008-'09, when I had a series of conversations with Byron Autrey, who was a close friend of Zig Kanstul and highly respected instrument guru. He told me he had developed a way to fill a bell with foam (urethane?), after coating the inside with a parting agent. Then, he would remove the foam and measure it to get the inside contour. He told me that different pieces of brass sheet behave differently when being worked, so the results are never totally consistent. One piece may lay down onto the mandrel nicely while being spun, while another stays loose.

Zig told me in one conversation that mandrels wear out after a time. On my first tour of the factory, I saw at least three bell mandrels marked with the number 3. I assume that these were all Benge mandrels. I wondered if they represented the Chicago, Burbank and LA eras, but I never asked. Anyway, the real challenge is replicating the tooling exactly, so that the bells spun on one mandrel produce the same range of result that the previous one did. Kanstul had one guy that cut all of their bell mandrels. He started as an employee, then went out on his own as a machinist. I saw him working on a Great American Tuba bell mandrel one day. That thing was huge!
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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