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Heim
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 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Spielberg West Side Story |
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| tptptp wrote: | | TMT wrote: | | Wayne Bergeron comes in on the solo with his trademark shake a la Maynard. |
Better than Maynard, to my ears. |
Maybe this would help?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19hDLDvnfJQ&t=6s |
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Fuzzy Dunlop
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Did Gottfried Reiche really just say Bud Herseth wouldn’t be able to hold down an orchestra job in 2021? |
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mm55
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Fuzzy Dunlop wrote: | | Did Gottfried Reiche really just say Bud Herseth wouldn’t be able to hold down an orchestra job in 2021? |
Herr Reiche doesn't even know how to use valves.
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MrClean
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| Tpt_Guy wrote: | | kehaulani wrote: | | I hope this is tongue in cheek, but the conductor most certainly does set the tempo and balance. Even if he uses a click tack and balance is manipulated by editing, it's not up to the sound men, necessarily, how to do the manipulation. Doesn't the conductor have the last word anyway? |
This depends on how the music was recorded.
Was the whole orchestra recorded together? Or were various sections recorded separately then their tracks combined and balanced for the final product? |
The Mambo was recorded in the midst of Covid (August of ‘20), so the orchestra was not together:
Saturday, Aug 8: Strings, Upright Bass, Synth, Drum Kit
Sunday, Aug 9: Woodwinds
Monday, Aug 10: Brass, Saxes
Tuesday, Aug 11: Percussion, Rhythm Section, Harp
Wednesday, Aug 12: Strings
There were plexiglass partitions between all of the wind/brass players, so getting a natural balance was not going to happen. All that was adjusted at the board and in post production. Even intonation was a big challenge because you really could not listen down the line.
The click was generated to serve the choreography and Dudamel was not the choreographer. He conducted, and we played, to that click. I don’t know how much say he had in any of it.
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Vin DiBona
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:47 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the explanation.
That had to be a nightmare for the players and Maestro Dudamel.
R. Tomasek |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:52 am Post subject: Re: Spielberg West Side Story |
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| Richard III wrote: | | . . . the solo is not of the character of a classic show band. Sorry for bringing that up. I want a broad and brash trumpet there. Not a tight laser sound. |
@Jim, if you're still here - I'm interested in your take on this statement. I'm not trying to stir up a controversy just looking to give my thoughts a better perspecive on the Broadway style. And I'm also sure you know Wayne, so maybe you'd rather not respond to this. But if you can . .
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Trumpetinberlin
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Spielberg West Side Story |
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| Jason Rogers wrote: | | Gottfried Reiche wrote: | | Daniel Barenboim wrote: | Just here to say the "good old days" are highly overrated. The level of playing today is much higher.
DB |
Absolutely. I always chuckle when folks reference Bud with how to play an orchestral excerpt. Bud was no doubt a master, and pretty much the dean of American Orchestral Trumpet Playing. But nobody plays like that anymore. Nobody can win a job playing like that. Nobody can keep a job playing like that. It's simply outdated. |
Gottfried Reiche does that mean you play better than Herseth? Please share the name of your orchestra. Performing in this day and time in a professional ensemble should be something we all embrace, share and live to be proud of. Please don't hide behind a pseudonym. Share with us examples of your playing. |
I think that somebody can have an opinion, even if he is not playing as good as Mr. Herseth. |
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Steve A
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Spielberg West Side Story |
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| Trumpetinberlin wrote: | | Jason Rogers wrote: | | Gottfried Reiche wrote: | | Daniel Barenboim wrote: | Just here to say the "good old days" are highly overrated. The level of playing today is much higher.
DB |
Absolutely. I always chuckle when folks reference Bud with how to play an orchestral excerpt. Bud was no doubt a master, and pretty much the dean of American Orchestral Trumpet Playing. But nobody plays like that anymore. Nobody can win a job playing like that. Nobody can keep a job playing like that. It's simply outdated. |
Gottfried Reiche does that mean you play better than Herseth? Please share the name of your orchestra. Performing in this day and time in a professional ensemble should be something we all embrace, share and live to be proud of. Please don't hide behind a pseudonym. Share with us examples of your playing. |
I think that somebody can have an opinion, even if he is not playing as good as Mr. Herseth. |
Agreed. Rather than the usual chorus of "how dare you?!" or "so you think you play better than Herseth, eh?" outrage, maybe we could try giving Reiche the benefit of the doubt, and assuming that they know Herseth was a sensational player, and looking at the underlying idea of the statement. (Instead of just looking for excuses to be offended.)
Herseth was an amazing trumpet player and musician, and he could, no doubt, have been successful today as well, but he would probably have had to adjust to some different ideas about trumpet sound and style first. He won that position in 1948 - is it really that surprising that some things might change in almost 75 years? |
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Jason Rogers
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:58 am Post subject: Herseth Slamming? |
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Just saying:
Performing in this day and time in a professional ensemble should be something we all embrace, share and live to be proud of. Please don't hide behind a pseudonym. Share with us examples of your playing.
God Bless Herseth working with Solti and crew---and yes, different time and
place ---we can all learn from the Chicago sound of the past!!!
You have a right to remain anon. ---Obviously---
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MrClean
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Spielberg West Side Story |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | Richard III wrote: | | . . . the solo is not of the character of a classic show band. Sorry for bringing that up. I want a broad and brash trumpet there. Not a tight laser sound. |
@Jim, if you're still here - I'm interested in your take on this statement. I'm not trying to stir up a controversy just looking to give my thoughts a better perspecive on the Broadway style. And I'm also sure you know Wayne, so maybe you'd rather not respond to this. But if you can . . |
It goes without saying that Wayne is unbelievably great, so solid, so accurate with mind-boggling control of the instrument upstairs. It almost makes you laugh when you hear it.
My expectation of this score will always be colored by my initial exposure to it, which was the original movie. While it is nowhere near as pristine as what Wayne and the NY and LA Philharmonics can do, it has a great feel to it. Like I mentioned above, there is a grit and authenticity there. If you were really lucky, maybe a band like that could have played at your school dance (yeah, right), because there was a certain looseness and sleaze to it. I can tell you right now Wayne ain’t playing any $100 dance band gig, haha. You can tell that Uan and company were really working their asses off to play that soundtrack, but it’s solid, honest playing. The same goes for the orchestra. The NY Phil and LA Phil are going to play it *way* cleaner than the studio players back in 1961 but that does not necessarily make it better. I guess it depends on what your preference is.
I think Wayne sounds amazing - he really smokes that solo, and having done the movie version with him in concert, I can say with authority that he sounds every bit as great live. There are *very* few people on the planet that can do what he does, and it’s always a treat when we get to play with him.
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:30 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, Jim.
FWIW, I like that looser, grittier and "authentic" feel, as well.
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cheiden
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:50 am Post subject: Re: Spielberg West Side Story |
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| Steve A wrote: | | Trumpetinberlin wrote: | | Jason Rogers wrote: | | Gottfried Reiche wrote: | | Daniel Barenboim wrote: | Just here to say the "good old days" are highly overrated. The level of playing today is much higher.
DB |
Absolutely. I always chuckle when folks reference Bud with how to play an orchestral excerpt. Bud was no doubt a master, and pretty much the dean of American Orchestral Trumpet Playing. But nobody plays like that anymore. Nobody can win a job playing like that. Nobody can keep a job playing like that. It's simply outdated. |
Gottfried Reiche does that mean you play better than Herseth? Please share the name of your orchestra. Performing in this day and time in a professional ensemble should be something we all embrace, share and live to be proud of. Please don't hide behind a pseudonym. Share with us examples of your playing. |
I think that somebody can have an opinion, even if he is not playing as good as Mr. Herseth. |
Agreed. Rather than the usual chorus of "how dare you?!" or "so you think you play better than Herseth, eh?" outrage, maybe we could try giving Reiche the benefit of the doubt, and assuming that they know Herseth was a sensational player, and looking at the underlying idea of the statement. (Instead of just looking for excuses to be offended.)
Herseth was an amazing trumpet player and musician, and he could, no doubt, have been successful today as well, but he would probably have had to adjust to some different ideas about trumpet sound and style first. He won that position in 1948 - is it really that surprising that some things might change in almost 75 years? |
I'm not seeing how to give the benefit of the doubt. Bagging on the past state-of-the-art just seems narrow-minded and mean-spirited and it doesn't contribute anything resembling dialog.
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Jason Rogers
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:52 am Post subject: West Side Story |
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Please allow Jim the last word on this....
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Jason Rogers
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:01 pm Post subject: West Side Story |
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Why did someone start talking about Bud Herseth in this West Side Story discussion?
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Gottfried Reiche
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Fuzzy Dunlop wrote: | | Did Gottfried Reiche really just say Bud Herseth wouldn’t be able to hold down an orchestra job in 2021? |
I said what I said. I doubt any in the biz would disagree with me. |
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Aspeyrer
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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I’m only asking to clarify; There is a picture circulating on social media showing the following 4 players as the ones on the soundtrack (I’m just quoting the text from the pic here)
“The trumpet section for "West Side Story" (2021)
Left to right: Kevin Cobb, Wayne Bergeron, Chris
Martin and Ray Riccomini.”
Which trumpet players are on new Spielberg film? |
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MrClean
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Most of it was recorded in NY (as that was Bernstein’s band) but there were some later sessions done in LA as well. I’m guessing LA was better set up to deal with Covid at that time. The LA section was Wayne/Tom, Jeff Strong and me. I don’t remember everything we did, but I do recall Mambo and Prologue. Maybe the Rumble, but I may be confusing it with a performance of Symphonic Dances this past summer.
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Jason Rogers
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:55 pm Post subject: Bud Herseth |
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| Gottfried Reiche wrote: | | Fuzzy Dunlop wrote: | | Did Gottfried Reiche really just say Bud Herseth wouldn’t be able to hold down an orchestra job in 2021? |
I said what I said. I doubt any in the biz would disagree with me. |
I am confused by this obsession on casting shade on Bud Herseth...
The Chicago Symphony has 742,002 monthly listeners on Spotify...compare that to other symphonies in the US and you will find that is significant... a lot of those recordings are with Herseth.
I don't want to pull Jim Wilt into this conversation...but I went to college at the same time he did....in the 80's...my fellow brass colleagues liked the Chicago brass. Herseth was a great teacher.
(Berlin Philharmonic....3,805,171 monthly listeners on Spotify)
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Aspeyrer
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| MrClean wrote: | | Most of it was recorded in NY (as that was Bernstein’s band) but there were some later sessions done in LA as well. I’m guessing LA was better set up to deal with Covid at that time. The LA section was Wayne/Tom, Jeff Strong and me. I don’t remember everything we did, but I do recall Mambo and Prologue. Maybe the Rumble, but I may be confusing it with a performance of Symphonic Dances this past summer. |
Very interesting info, thanks so much! |
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Nonprokingdom
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Gottfried Reiche"][quote="Fuzzy Dunlop"]Did Gottfried Reiche really just say Bud Herseth wouldn’t be able to hold down an orchestra job in 2021?[/quote]
I said what I said. I doubt any in the biz would disagree with me.[/quote]
I doubt most people in “the biz” would agree with you. While I agree that the level is far better now than ever, no one is able/allowed to do what Herseth did.
Most people at the top level of “the biz” know the tremendous work load and demands that come with that type of job. Bud was playing better in his late 60s than most do in their 30s-40s. You really think he was so one dimensional that he wouldn’t be able to adapt to or even codify current trends?
To claim Bud couldn’t hold down a job in todays scene is just plain ignorant. We aren’t speculating about someone that was an inconsistent, mediocre player… |
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