To restore or not to restore......that is the question.

[Ghostly Bugler]

Through a strange quirk of fate, and my fascination for junk shops, I am in (legal) possession of an Olds French Model (ser. no.1741) and a Martin Committee (sr. no 194154) with the magic '3' above the ser. no.

The Olds just looks....well....old. The Martin appears to have survived a plane crash. What should I avoid doing?

The Martin is still playable and you can hear the 'smoke' that so many refer to. The Olds sounds great and the compression is amazing.

I'm not a 'trumpet player', just a person who can get it to work convincingly enough. I'm a writer/arranger who tries to get his head around what the real musicians have to do.

I'm in the UK and talking to a major restorer in the North west.

What do you reckon?

[JayKosta]

Have you started to 'talk money' for the restore work?
Actual restoring can be very expensive. And it is questionable if the increase in value would compensate for the restoration cost.
Having needed repair work to have the horns 'presentable' and functioning should be less cost. And you would have good playable instruments that could be sold, or at a later time have restoration done.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[Goby]

You'll get more money out of selling them as-is rather than restored. You have two of the rarest vintage trumpets, and the people who would be interested in buying them are going to be willing to pay a premium for original condition. Since you're not planning on using them for a professional performance career, the horns being shiny and new with rebuilt valves really serves you no purpose. If the old look bothers you, sell them and buy a new horn.


If you want to keep them, the wear and tear tells the story of their lives and is a testament to the lasting power of quality work, so learn to love the look of an old horn. The Martin could easily get you $5000 USD by Friday if you put it on the market today. The Olds isn't as valuable, but much more rare. If it's all original, you're looking at $1500-2000 to the right person.


I'd caution you against sending them in to just any repair shop. Ultrasonic machines can be pretty brutal on old brass, and an inexperienced or careless technician won't take the time to properly clean it without machines. I had a 1965 Bach 72 that had the entire bell bow split open as a result of being left in an ultrasonic tank for too long.


If you're planning on having any restoration work done, make sure that no parts are replaced. Don't let your tech "modernize" anything or try to improve ergonomics or playability. Vintage horns are outclassed in nearly every way by most modern horns, so don't go in looking to "soup it up" into a "hot rod" hybrid horn. Once you take a soldering torch to a trumpet, you can never put it back to original condition. Refinishing can also dull the original engraving, which greatly hurts the value of a horn, so don't re-lacquer it. If the lacquer is falling off, you could have it stripped, but make sure it isn't excessively buffed, as this will hurt the engraving.

[Halflip]

Wow! You must frequent some remarkable junk shops.

(I see that you have received other good responses while I was composing this post; my thoughts assume that you want to keep the horns for a while rather than flip them ASAP for the best possible monetary gain.)

I'm not an expert, but I have a collection of over 50 vintage and classic horns, most of which I've had restored to "like new" condition by well-respected brass technicians with a national/international reputation. I avoid 'customizing' or over-restoring, and I rely on the experts I choose to preserve or improve playing characteristics, rather than compromising playability as a side-effect of restoration. These comments all reflect my personal preferences.

Some people favor keeping horns in "original, unrestored" condition as long as they play reasonably well, or only doing as much as is necessary to make a horn play well again (rebuilding leaky valves, patching or replacing tubing that has advanced "red rot", etc.). While "original, unrestored" condition can make a collector car more valuable, I don't think it's quite as important for brass instruments -- in most cases they aren't so prized as pure collectibles. I think most owners of classic horns want them to be usable in actual performance situations.

So, what to do? Pictures of your horns would help. Without pictures, and 'shooting from the hip' (and I mean really shooting from the hip), I'd say engage a top-notch brass expert to restore the Martin (sounds like it's really banged up if it looks like it survived a plane crash) and keep the Olds original (just have it cleaned, lubed, play-tested, and adjusted -- valve alignment and so on). Use a "top-notch" expert to restore the Martin because a so-so job will hurt its value.

Goby has made some good suggestions regarding finish; I would only add that a really top-notch brass expert would be able to refinish a horn without compromising the sharpness of any engraving.

I am assuming that the "major restorer" you are talking to is a brass instrument specialist; if not, you should find one that is. They will know how to optimize the playing characteristics of the horns (without altering them from 'stock'). They will also be able to give you a much better informed second opinion (relative to what I've said here) on how much work should be done on the horns to maximize their usefulness while preserving their value. I know some expert brass technicians in the U.S. who are also collectors with the perspective to give you really good advice (Robb Stewart and Josh Landress come to mind), but I don't know anyone like that in the U.K.

[yourbrass]

If you're not a "trumpet player," why would you consider restoration?
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/

[so what]

This is your opportunity to become a "trumpet player". Take it!

[jimspeedjae]

In the past, I've sent vintage horns for restoration back to the US. Expensive, yes. Done right, yes. Whilst we have some great builders and repair people over here, the US has a better choice and experience in the restoration of vintage US horns.

I can guess the shop in the North West you refer to. I've seen really good work on modern instruments, especially brass band related, and plenty of top players use them. But I once recommended them to a member on here who reported unwanted and undesirable work done without approval. And I was once told a leadpipe needed changing, but they couldn't tell me with what. So I don't recommend them anymore unless it's a brass band instrument or something straightforward.

I am sure that you would get a playable, great looking horn back. But I'm less sure that it would be from all the parts you sent them. Your control of the project and experience could be entirely different, of course.

[Ghostly Bugler]

Thank you so much for your replies - all so useful. Jimspeedjae - you've guessed the workshop correctly. They are in Manchester UK and post restoration vids on their facebook page. They've seen pics of the Martin and have quoted their standard price for a complete restore. (either silver plate or standard lacquer)

The Martin has had a real thump at some stage. Both the bell and the lead pipe has come away from both sides of No.2 and where the bell crook is attached to the 1 valve tuning slide has also come away. The 3 valve 'pinky' is missing - Dents on the bell but none between 3 valve and the flare.

Having said that, I played a high D on it just now (with a VB 6 piece) That's a first for me!

I'd love to post some pics - what is the best way?

So: to So what - Thanks for the encouragement - my main problem is seeing a C but hearing a Bb. as a string player, that does my head in.

To : Halflip - Your reply is packed with good advice - I certainly shan't overcook this by going for 'brushed' or 'gold-leaf' finish.

On the matter of junkshops (altho' the owners describe them as 'Antiques and Collectibles), I make a point of looking at every musical instrument in there. These two horns came in tatty cases and nobody had bothered to look at them including the dealers. I bought them both in the US - at the same shop !! while visiting family - the Olds 2 years ago now and Martin last month. The Olds was $38.00 inc tax and the Martin for $22 because the dealer said I was doing him a favour! So JayKosta - it has to be worth a go at $800 for the job.

To : Goby - Great advice - many thanks especially the ultrasonic warning.

To: yourbrass - The Olds is probably OK - just needs an overhaul and a few small dents removed - inc the customary 2 valve crook.

Gentlemen thanks again for such helpful replies. Cheers!

[Halflip]

[Ghostly Bugler]

https://imgur.com/Y8Iyn1x

https://imgur.com/66vn9d8

https://imgur.com/WY78t3T

https://imgur.com/SLGdPG1

https://imgur.com/a/UnGP4du The whole thing

https://imgur.com/a/UIpSAPD Whole thing - leadpipe side.

I hope this one works - it's a test flight!

[Ghostly Bugler]

[Halflip]

[Ghostly Bugler]

[jimspeedjae]

I'd send it to Charlie. He did a remarkable job for me on and Olds a few years back.

If you do decide to get it done in the UK and you want one of those replica pipes Haflip mentioned, pm me. I have one that's never been mounted somewhere if you're interested.

[Halflip]

[Ghostly Bugler]

[Ghostly Bugler]

[dr-pepp]

There has already been some good advice given. The dollars (or pounds) for a restoration rarely result in an increase in value to justify the expense. On the right horn, it sometimes pays off. I didn't see any photos of the Olds, but the Committee looks to have a bit of a Shepard's crook, which isn't desirable for a trumpet. Neither of these are horns that I'd recommend "learning" about the do's and don'ts of restoration. You asked the question, so my answer is NO, don't restore.
_________________
Clay Collins
Owner, Centex Brass
www.centexbrass.com
also administrator of Olds Central
www.olds-central.com

[scottfsmith]

[dr-pepp]