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Al Cass corrosion?


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JeffT453
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:10 am    Post subject: Al Cass corrosion? Reply with quote

OK just picked up a new Bach Strad 180s37 after having been out of things for 20 years or so.

Back in the day, Al Cass was my "go to" valve oil. When I bought the new horn, the salesman (a trumpet player) said to use synthetic oil, no Blue Juice (I know it sucks from my kid's experience) and no Al Cass. I laughed and said, "I have to confess I'm a big Al Cass fan, why shouldn't I use it?" He said the Al Cass causes corrosion because of what it is made out of.

I've never heard this before so I'm curious as to what everyone else has heard. I used Al Cass for almost 25 years with no problem that I'm aware of, so def wondering about this. Thanks
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used al cass on my strads for many years with no issues that I know of.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've used both on different horns for years with no problems. I've found horn hygiene to be more important than oil choice.

(Now and then I've found a trumpet that only responds to La Tromba or Denis Wick but they are exceptions.)
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al cass will have fewer problems that synthetics or bio based. My experience anyway. If al cass works good on a horn use it.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Al Cass corrosion? Reply with quote

JeffT453 wrote:
He said the Al Cass causes corrosion because of what it is made out of.

I've never heard this before so I'm curious as to what everyone else has heard. I used Al Cass for almost 25 years with no problem that I'm aware of, so def wondering about this. Thanks

That's garbage. Al Cass doesn't "cause corrosion" unless they've changed the formula in the last decade. I used Al Cass from 5th grade until ... about 4-5 years ago. A long time.

I don't think that the quality of Al Cass currently is as good as it was back in the day, but it's a serviceable oil that doesn't cause issues in of itself.

The main thing is that it's very thin and tends to evaporate quickly. If you've got worn valves - like on my Yamaha - it's completely ineffective. Does it promote wear because it evaporates quickly? I kind of doubt it, but that's literally all I can come up with.

I do think that some of the excellent synthetics - Hetman, Yamaha, Ultra Pure - are better lubricants which last longer and work great. But, there's nothing wrong with Al Cass if it works for you.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Al Cass corrosion? Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
The main thing is that it's very thin and tends to evaporate quickly. If you've got worn valves - like on my Yamaha - it's completely ineffective. Does it promote wear because it evaporates quickly? I kind of doubt it, but that's literally all I can come up with.

I switched to Hetmans years back. Before that I found that Cass tended to dry out in the case and the cause the valves to seize. A hard press/tap on the valve button would free it. I thought it was normal since I don’t practice daily.

But with Hetmans it never happens.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Al Cass corrosion? Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
Crazy Finn wrote:
The main thing is that it's very thin and tends to evaporate quickly. If you've got worn valves - like on my Yamaha - it's completely ineffective. Does it promote wear because it evaporates quickly? I kind of doubt it, but that's literally all I can come up with.

I switched to Hetmans years back. Before that I found that Cass tended to dry out in the case and the cause the valves to seize. A hard press/tap on the valve button would free it. I thought it was normal since I don’t practice daily.

But with Hetmans it never happens.

I didn't play my Benge from June until September a few years ago and didn't oil the valves and they worked just fine with Yamaha synthetic - after 3-4 months.
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Tony Scodwell
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:05 am    Post subject: Al Cass Reply with quote

The Al Cass available today is a fine oil albeit slightly thicker than in the past. As for causing any corrosion I doubt that. I make my own oil so I haven't seen what's available in the music stores these days but our benevolent government has decreed that any oil product for sale commercially thinner than Wesson cooking oil must now have a child safety cap on the bottle. That's a pain but mandated now.

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JeffT453
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah the bottle of Bach Synthetic the horn came with had the child proof cap. Was annoying
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Al Cass Reply with quote

Tony Scodwell wrote:
The Al Cass available today is a fine oil albeit slightly thicker than in the past. As for causing any corrosion I doubt that. I make my own oil so I haven't seen what's available in the music stores these days but our benevolent government has decreed that any oil product for sale commercially thinner than Wesson cooking oil must now have a child safety cap on the bottle. That's a pain but mandated now.

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Remember when valve oil and nasal spray came in the same plastic squeeze bottles?

Now that was a pain.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JeffT453 wrote:
Yeah the bottle of Bach Synthetic the horn came with had the child proof cap. Was annoying

That must be new. I haven't seen that.
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plankowner110
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al Cass oil continuous user for about 55 years. Always works great with never any issues.
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JensenW
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also have used Al Cass for years, at the suggestion of my teacher 20 years ago. Never had a problem with Al Cass oil.
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HoosierBrass
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another Al Cass Fast user since the early 90s and have never had an issue.
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harryjamesworstnightmare
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 6:09 am    Post subject: Re: Al Cass Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
Tony Scodwell wrote:
The Al Cass available today is a fine oil albeit slightly thicker than in the past. As for causing any corrosion I doubt that. I make my own oil so I haven't seen what's available in the music stores these days but our benevolent government has decreed that any oil product for sale commercially thinner than Wesson cooking oil must now have a child safety cap on the bottle. That's a pain but mandated now.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com


Remember when valve oil and nasal spray came in the same plastic squeeze bottles?

Now that was a pain.


Do you also remember when it came in a glass bottle with an eyedropper? How many of us managed to tip it over and spill half the bottle at some point?
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JeffT453
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, eyedropper bottles. That sure brings back memories
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StorkandBenge
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am curious why Blue Juice is not recommended. I have used it exclusively in my horns since around 1985 and have had no problems that I know of. It seems to be very slick and is stated to be anti-bacterial. I would appreciate other's point of view good or bad. I know some don't like the odor, but I just don't smell anything. Thanks in advance.
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 2:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Al Cass Reply with quote

harryjamesworstnightmare wrote:
Do you also remember when it came in a glass bottle with an eyedropper? How many of us managed to tip it over and spill half the bottle at some point?


Yep. In fact, when I went and got my old Bach 37 out of my parents' house after it had been sitting in the closet there for 28 years, there was a bottle just like that under the horn still, in that little hidden, hinged compartment the old Bach cases had. It was mostly dried up, but still had a tiny bit inside.

I've long since gone to UltraPure for everything, one of the best in the heat down here in Texas. Outdoor gigs in the summers sometimes being over a hundred or thereabouts, I've never had it bail on me. Saved a few other people from heat-related valve issues in those conditions too and converted a few of them into the fold.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StorkandBenge wrote:
I am curious why Blue Juice is not recommended. I have used it exclusively in my horns since around 1985 and have had no problems that I know of. It seems to be very slick and is stated to be anti-bacterial. I would appreciate other's point of view good or bad. I know some don't like the odor, but I just don't smell anything. Thanks in advance.

Blue Juice causes a lot of problems for many people.

There might be several issues with it, but I think of the of one of them is the addition of "detergents" or whatever that "clean" the horn. That sounds like a nice idea, but oil in a trumpet doesn't circulate, it just stays in the valves. If it's magically collecting debris from wherever, it doesn't have anywhere to go. Maybe it will accumulate in the bottom caps of the valves, but the moment you tip the horn on the side or on the end, stuff from the valve caps will start to run back into the casings.

The other, major issue with Blue Juice is that it doesn't work well with other oils. If you happen to mix Blue Juice with anything that isn't Blue Juice - maybe you run out of whatever you are using and use something different at a gig or rehearsal, it's not going to go well - at all. Obviously, using the same oil and cleaning the valves thoroughly is a good idea whenever changing oils (or in general) but failing to do so with Blue Juice tends to be more catastrophic than simply annoying in terms of really instantly binding up the valves. Aside from witnessing this second hand or anecdotally, I'm speaking from personal experience on this one as well.

I am not a repair tech, but I taught band for a nearly two decades and later worked music retail at a place that also had a repair shop that I hung out in pretty often. I can't tell you the number of horns that came in - either as customers or students - with valve issues that had a bottle of Blue Juice in the case. It was a rate that was far disproportionate to it's popularity overall. If a student had valve issues and used Blue Juice, sometimes just cleaning the valves helped, but usually cleaning the valve and switching to a different oil did the trick.

If you talk to repair techs, they almost universally recommend something that's not Blue Juice. That means something.

However, for all things, there are exceptions, and Blue Juice does work well for some people, a few that I know, and a few students I've had. However, the countless negative experiences are one reason I don't recommend it, and I'm certainly not the only one.
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ebolton
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2021 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Al Cass Reply with quote

harryjamesworstnightmare wrote:


Do you also remember when it came in a glass bottle with an eyedropper? How many of us managed to tip it over and spill half the bottle at some point?


I threw away one of those bottles just a few months ago. When I resurrected my mother's trumpet after finding it while cleaning out my dad's house, I discovered she had one of those bottles in the case. The price was printed on the bottle: $1.50. I finished off the oil myself (it was still fine) and I almost kept the bottle, but I decided I already had too much nostalgic crap around.
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