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Doug Elliott found the answer for me


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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich, you sounded great. I think anyone who didn't know that you were going through some corrections right now wouldn't notice anything unless they were very familiar with your playing already. Your solo was very tasty and your reading was great too.

It was a long day for us. We rehearsed with our guest singer on Sinatra charts for about an hour and 45 minutes, then had about an hour and 15 minutes off for dinner. Then we came back and played 2 sets. There were plenty of short breaks between tunes and while counting rests, so my Type IV chops handled it pretty well, but on the closer of the night (My Kind of Town) I felt myself tightening up a bit. We still had a couple of chasers and a two chart encore to play, but there was just long enough that I felt OK to the end of the night. I think all of us were getting tired by the end, though.

Quote:
Wow, I have to say, this typeswitching thing is completely foreign to me. I had no idea it was as common as it apparently is.

I've always been a IV.


I didn't always play as a IV (or IVA, since my jaw is a receded, but I'm not sure that it's necessary to differentiate those types). I went to Doug first playing as a IIIB and had to go through a pretty drastic change when we discovered I would play better as a IV. In that situation I at least had a similar pivot direction, so it was mostly a matter of developing a new playing groove for the mouthpiece placement and figuring out how to form my lip position. In Rich's case he's not only working on a new mouthpiece placement, but changing his pivot direction and I think also working with a new horn angle.

Rich, please keep us posted about how things go, what difficulties you've had and what it took for you to work through them. I think you'll end up a better teacher because of this experience and I hope you'll share that with the rest of us.

Dave
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Dave! In retrospect it was a more demanding gig than I anticipated. Had I thought it would have been as much of a blow as it turned out to be I might have backed out but I'm sure glad I didn't. One more gig under my belt, breaking in my shiny new IIIA embouchure.

Wilktone wrote:
In Rich's case he's not only working on a new mouthpiece placement, but changing his pivot direction and I think also working with a new horn angle.


Y'know, Doc told us many times not to work on more than two mechanical corrections and here you've listed three. You made me realize that once I set the mouthpiece then there are only two other things I need to think about. This absolutely would not be the case if the whole Reinhardt approach was new to me. For instance, Doug urged me to use mouthcorner breathing for more of my initial attacks since that sets things up in a way that wouldn't happen with nose breathing. I already know about the three-point lubrication, and on and on.

So bearing down on just a couple points at this juncture really is not that drastic, and as Mike Sailors told me, it only feels unfamiliar until it feels familiar.

Thanks again, Dave . . . I thoroughly enjoyed that gig and I also thought you did a magnificent job as bandleader, musical director and lead trombonist! Kudos!!!
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update: one month now on this “new” IIIA embouchure type and all I can say is yes!

The feel is becoming less and less unnatural and/or uncomfortable and my sound, articulation, range and endurance are all greatly improved.

Every aspect of my playing is improving, actually, including my ability to improvise since my confidence is coming back.

I’m not as afraid to take chances and after a couple weeks of trying for things that are actually coming out I would say that this has been the best period of my playing life since my first months actually studying with Doc back in 1978.

Also, my “Bells Palsy Blob” (that has messed with me from time to time ever since I had Bells Palsy back in 2009) is not even a factor since my trumpet mouthpiece is sitting above (not on) that area, and my doubling on bass trumpet/valve trombone and tuba has actually improved since my circles are much more concentric than they used to be. All three of my mouthpiece placements used to have a common uppermost point on my upper lip as a IIIB but now they all seem to share the same centerpoint which is what Doc taught.

Hopefully you won’t get tired of me suggesting strongly to anyone who is having less than satisfactory results on their horn, go to Doug Elliott!


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Doug Elliott
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

100 lessons with Doc over 10 years, and another 25 years to ferment and distill into the good stuff.

Glad it's all going well. It will only get better. And the doubling and tripling helps put it all on perspective.
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BeboppinFool wrote:
Y'know, Doc told us many times not to work on more than two mechanical corrections and here you've listed three.


For what it's worth, I've always interpreted this advice more along the lines of not multitasking while you practice. Choose one (or two) items to focus on while you're practicing, work on that for a bit, then move on to something else. I think touching on a number of topics over the course of your practice routine helps keep things fresh as well.

I would agree that major corrections do require a different thought process and that you probably don't want to focus on more than one or two of those at a time, so you might find it helpful to focus on one or two of the corrections (mouthpiece placement, horn angle, pivot) during the bulk of your practicing, but as long as you're not bogging down on doing too much at the same time, I would think you would be find to spend a bit of time focusing on all three - provided you don't practice all three at once in the same moment.

I'd be curious to hear other folks' thoughts on this. When you practice and teach, how do you approach working on corrections? Do you try to keep things down to a couple of corrections for a day, week, month, etc.? Or do you have many topics to consider and break them down into separate moments in the practice session/lesson?

Dave
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wilktone wrote:
... I'd be curious to hear other folks' thoughts on this. When you practice and teach, how do you approach working on corrections? ...

-------------------
When I 'work on a correction', my main attention is on that item, BUT I try to be aware of the entire 'playing process' to detect if other problems start occurring.
If I cannot isolate the problems to one-thing-at-a-time, then I reduce the complexity so that the most important problem gets attention.

Being able to recognize and identify the 'most important problem' is very important because WITHOUT attention and correction it will continue to be a weakness.

If it is desired to work on several problems during a session, do them separately, and monitor the entire playing process.

In a practice situation where there is a later 'performance need' to get through an entire piece, then the 'correction process' needs to be changed from individual technical concerns to a more long term outlook of how to react to the the individual problems that do occur, and how to continue in spite of them.
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Continuing with my progress diary, here are some observations:

My tuba playing almost instantly got a hundred times better since I wasn’t playing other instruments as a IIIB. So many of the problems I was having on tuba melted away in the first couple weeks and it has been a joy playing these tuba gigs (I have one tomorrow night that I’m actually looking forward to!).

My valve trombone/bass trumpet playing has improved in the practice room, although I played a trombone gig recently and it wasn’t effortless, let’s say. I did make it through the gig without having to be hauled off on a stretcher so that’s progress.

My trumpet playing is my “lagging indicator” it would seem. I did play a church gig last week that was unquestionably the best I’ve ever sounded on a church gig, hands down. When I’m practicing trumpet my sound is springy and full of life, my articulation is coming out nice and clean, but I seem to be having trouble still not letting the mouthpiece slip into my old playing groove. Doug warned me about this tendency and it looks like that’s going to be my biggest challenge.

I’ve started making one and two minute videos of myself practicing to see what it looks like when I’m trying to do the stuff Doug assigned me and it’s pretty obvious that this hasn’t fully taken hold yet.

But today is my three-month mark and I’m still optimistic. Three months ago I was on the verge of selling all my trumpets and cornets, but today I’m reinvigorated about being a trumpet player once again.

Happy New Year, everybody!
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patdublc
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll share some updates as well. I took one lesson from Doug. It was in person, at my house. He introduced me to "the concepts" and suggested that I was "moving" in the wrong direction. I'm intentionally avoiding the technical stuff. Doug has my permission to expand on that here in the forum if he feels it is useful.

I was immediately able to try his suggestions but it was uncomfortable and I was bad at it. After a few days, things really started to click - less effort to play, easier to play in tune, bigger resonance, very little fatigue during practice, and a big sound. The only real challenge was finding my high register. It was kind of elusive. Sometimes it was there and sometimes it wasn't.

Fast forward several more weeks. The results are excellent. I had one streak of 4-weeks without an off-day. My sound sparkled, especially on piccolo trumpet. And my high D-concert on picc was crazy good.

Then, I finally had an off day where everything felt stuffy. It turned in to an off week before things started to turn around. During that week, I had a Messiah to play. It was unrehearsed, I was the only brass player, and I did not know most of the chamber orchestra musicians. It went fine. I know how to play Messiah. And I know how to play smart. I was disappointed that I didn't have the sparkle that I had the week before, but I can't imagine that anyone noticed.

Then everything started clicking again and I'm very pleased with my playing. I've got a ton of questions that I want to go over with Doug so I'll be contacting him again soon. In retrospect, I should have contacted him as soon as I had the first off day to see if he could diagnose something I was doing wrong. Next time, I'll do that.

My high range is still very interesting. Sometimes I slide right into a double XYZ and sometimes I don't. I clearly don't have control of the "knack" yet for the extreme upper register. I think it will all come with time, focused practice to gain better coordination, and some additional guidance from Doug.

For more about me - I don't earn my living through music so it is easy for me to proudly say that I'm an amateur trumpet player. These days I choose to play a very limited performance schedule. The great benefit of my situation is that I have the freedom to experiment with new concepts and not have to worry about tomorrow's gig.

Bottom line - best money I've ever spent on anything trumpet related.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BeboppinFool wrote:
Three months ago I was on the verge of selling all my trumpets and cornets, but today I’m reinvigorated about being a trumpet player once again.


I feel so happy for you, Rich. What a relief. I know exactly how you felt and how exasperating it must've been. You're too good a musician to do anything else. Congratulations.
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Coming up to the six-month mark as a recovering IIIB, now a IIIA, and it’s been interesting to say the least.

I have scheduled another lesson with Doug when he gets back from the road trip he’s on at the moment, and he will hopefully help me with his timely course corrections to keep me steered in the right direction.

When I talked to Mike Sailors about this new IIIA thing for me, he told me that it took him six months before it felt “automatic” and I was hoping for that same timeline, however, I think he was about half my current age when he made the change, so I’m thinking that maybe for me it might take at least twice as long.

While the new placement has become “normal” for me, the IIIA (Pivot Classification One) feel while ascending or descending is still solidifying and as Doug warned, it’s easy to slip into the old groove which is pulling down to ascend and pushing up to descend.

My practicing sessions are showing much improvement, but the gigs I’ve done are lagging behind where it seems like my development in the practice room is, and that’s still a bit discouraging.

Then again, my tuba gigs have been an utter joy to play, and when I play bass trumpet/valve trombone that’s feeling as good as it always did (that didn’t seem to take the beating that my trumpet chops did as a type-switcher).

So, thanks for bearing with me — keeping this diary of my progress here online. It’s an interesting journey and hopefully the scenery will continue to improve.
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