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Doodle tongue



 
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Tobias
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:01 am    Post subject: Doodle tongue Reply with quote

Hi,

who uses doodle tongue on very fast tempos?

My standard articulation is da daha daha... which I adjust to the shape of the lines.

At really fast tempos I can't do it anymore.

I watched some stuff on Youtube by Randy Brecker, Dominic Farrinacci and others explainig doodle tongue but I can't get it (yet?).

What are your advices to learn this techique?

Thanks!

Cheers,
Tobias
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falado
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, I haven't had time to search, but I saw a Master Class once given by Clark Terry and he covers this. You should be able to find this.

Dave
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falado
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is it. There's another one too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RucVU6F2l5I
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see how "da daha daha" might not be fast enough. I think you're likely to need a ka or ga tongue to compliment your ta or da tongue. If you haven't suffered building up your "K" tonguing it's probably something you'll need to do. It took me months and I hated it but it pays off in the end.
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Notlem
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

not sure if this will help or not, clark Terry presents a good way to get the tongue started.

Double tonguing was never my forte when going fast and I developed my own, what I perceived was a non staccato way to do it, which I later learned in life was called doodle tonguing.

This is what it kind of means to me - your milage will vary and some or many may disagree, its just how I perceive the placement of my tongue and the roof of my mouth when making these noises. Note that English was not the first language of my family. This is a bit hard for me to explain.

for me the vowels are:

a - as used in the word for your family member - father

e - like used in the word pen

I - like when used in the word tea (it just like saying the word "E")

O - like when used in the word cozy

U - like when used in the word rude

so I will try to write this like it may sound.

tu ku (aka too koo, etc) - the too is done closer with the tip of the tongue closer to the back of the teeth the ku is done on the back side of your tongue where it arches father back in the roof of your mouth- very staccato - I am told the tu should be said with the French vowel, but that has not helped much, im stuck on Italian.

duh gah (aka do ga - doo ga - du ga) - the duh is used with father back on your on your tongue, the gah is again done with the back arch of your tongue again farther back on the roof of your mouth and is less staccato

doodle tongue - this is like going from too ku to duh gah - but your trying to get the movement of your tongue between the too attacks as close as possible... so the first attack is even father back than the du or duh - possible words I may be using - doo dool seems the closet for me but muddy, and dell lah is more cleaned up for me. when I said the mass of words clark Terry named off, my tongue quickly fell in to this mode.

The pedogagy guys will hopefully step in on this one, for all I know I am a mile off but hope this gets you on the right track.

-marc
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More bone players do it than trumpet players. ‘The second syllable , “dle ” as in Doo-dle , keeps the front of the tongue touching the whole time the “dle ” syllable is happening. So the air has to go around the sides of the front of the tongue to get out. That’s why bone players do it easier. The bigger mouthpiece gives more room for the air to go around the sides.

So, fast you say “doo-dle-doo-dle-doo-dle and the fron of your tongue barely moves, but the air has to find a path around the middle cuz your tongue is holding itself there in the middle touching The Whole time during the second syllable
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
More bone players do it than trumpet players. ‘The second syllable , “dle ” as in Doo-dle , keeps the front of the tongue touching the whole time the “dle ” syllable is happening. So the air has to go around the sides of the front of the tongue to get out. That’s why bone players do it easier. The bigger mouthpiece gives more room for the air to go around the sides.

So, fast you say “doo-dle-doo-dle-doo-dle and the fron of your tongue barely moves, but the air has to find a path around the middle cuz your tongue is holding itself there in the middle touching The Whole time during the second syllable

I find that focusing on stopping the air makes all this harder. When I focus on just bumping the air it's much easier. After you figure that out it's easier to make the tonguing sharper when it's needed.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No disrespect to the great Clark Terry but I personally don't believe thinking of syllables or vowel shapes is as effective to good swing feel / articulation as just transcribing, detailed listening, imagining how you want to sound, and making it happen. I could be way off but I would imagine Clark Terry learned to play how he played by listening, copying, and creating his own sound, and then later to explain it to people he came up with "doodle" vocal figures as a way to break it down for people.
I'm definitely not trying to contradict anybody or derail the thread, so want to make sure everyone knows I'm just offering my thoughts in good faith and not trying to be "right" or claim anyone is "wrong".
Articulation is a vast spectrum, and every player articulates/swings a little bit differently. I don't think a method can work for jazz articulation the same way we teach double and triple tonguing.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
No disrespect to the great Clark Terry but I personally don't believe thinking of syllables or vowel shapes is as effective to good swing feel / articulation as just transcribing, detailed listening, imagining how you want to sound, and making it happen.

I recently suffered a rehearsal where I tried to explain jazz phrasing to a less experienced trumpet player and a sax player kept insisting that each note have a very specific syllable. Made me nuts. To be fair I've heard much more expert players describe phrasing that way but I can't imagine starting out like that.
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c cup
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I watched an interview with Randy Brecker in which he said he moves the tip of his tongue from side to side for doodle tonguing. That would work great if you could figure out how the heck to make it work.
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c cup
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't believe I found it again. Here is a great Randy Brecker Yamaha clinic. He starts talking about doodle tonguing at about the 6 minute mark. Soon after he talks about moving his tongue side to side. Sure works for him!

https://www.yamaha.com/podcasts/winds/Randy_Brecker_Clinic_0109.m4v?rssid=5027892&et=randy_brecker_0109&source=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yamaha.com%2Fpodcasts%2Fwinds%2FRandy_Brecker_Clinic_0109.m4v&type=m4v
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