• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

What is this accessory ? solved : LefreQue tone bridge


Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Other Toys
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mm55
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1383

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bert-Jan wrote:
Recent studies proof that the resonance of the body of brass instruments is of significant influence to their sound output (despite tons of earlier scientific research showing the contribution of the body is insignificant).

Please give citations for the recent studies that you mention. Also, please give citations for the "tons of earlier scientific research". Thank you.
_________________
'75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'89 Rudy Muck Conductor crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
deleted_user_687c31b
New Member


Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0

PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bert-Jan wrote:
It is so easy to just be anonymous and ventilate all kinds of false accusations.

The explanation you gave for the 'sponsorship' is a reasonable one. The original wording on his website however, was unclear about it (given that you're gonna ask Eric Vloeimans to alter the text, you agree it causes confusion). Questioning people's motives when a potential conflict of interest arises is a normal thing in any discussion though. I'll admit I was in error here, though you understand why I arrived to that conclusion. I've redacted my posts accordingly.

As for your product in general, I've been mulling several (long) responses to the things you wrote. In the end though I've decided that I'm just not interested in LeFreque anymore, and I'll leave it at that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bert-Jan
New Member


Joined: 11 May 2017
Posts: 8
Location: Holland

PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm55 wrote:
Bert-Jan wrote:
Recent studies proof that the resonance of the body of brass instruments is of significant influence to their sound output (despite tons of earlier scientific research showing the contribution of the body is insignificant).

Please give citations for the recent studies that you mention. Also, please give citations for the "tons of earlier scientific research". Thank you.


These publications shed more light on wall vibrations in wind instruments and the proven significant contribution to their sound. In the literature lists you will also find many references to earlier research (between 1817 -2006) concluding that wall vibrations do not significantly contribute. Only after 2006 a change in this believe system occurred with the results of Thomas. R. Moore et al. After that, more and more new research confirms the significant influence of wall vibrations on the sound of wind instruments.

Wilfried Kausel, Daniel W. Zietlow* and Thomas R. Moore, “Influence of wall vibrations on the sound of brass wind instruments,” Journal of the Acoustical Society of America 128 (5) 3161-3174 (2010).

Wilfried Kausel, Vasileios Chatziioannou, Thomas R. Moore, “The effect of wall vibrations on the air column inside trumpet bells”, Acoustics 2012, April 2012, Nantes France, HAL-00810995
1 . Introduction
Wave propagation inside a wind instrument has been extensively studied and successfully modelled in the past decades (see for example [1, 2, 3]). The walls of the in strument bore are usually considered as perfectly rigid in such models. However, this is not the case under playing conditions of brass wind instruments, with players claiming that wall vibrations can affect the behaviour of an instrument even though the amplitude is extremely small compared to the dimensions of the bell. This leads to a debate concern ing whether such small oscillations can significantly influ ence the sound radiated from wind instruments. Several re searchers have recently dealt with this topic [4, 5, 6, 7] and experiments have shown that the effect of wall vibrations should not be neglected [8, 9].

Thomas R. Moore, Britta R. Gorman, Michelle Rokni, Wilfried Kausel and Vasileios Chatziioannou, “Axial vibrations of brass wind instrument bells and their acoustical influence: Experiments,” J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 138, 1233-1240 (2015).

Wilfried Kausel, Vasileios Chatziioannou, Thomas R. Moore, Britta R. Gorman, and Michelle Rokni. J., “Axial Vibrations of Brass Wind Instrument Bells and Their Acoustical Influence: Theory and Simulations”Acoust. Soc. Am. 137, 3149 (2015).
_________________
lefreQue
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
royjohn
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 2264
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just ran across this...certainly it would not be the first time something simple like this influenced playing characteristics...adding mass in various places is known to have an effect. Two things concern me...there hasn't been any double blinded comparison and we should all know how powerful the placebo effect is...so I'll reserve judgement until the double blind trial is done. Secondly, the tonal descriptions of all the different metals the LefreQue comes in are hard to believe. Why there should be a discernible difference between a brass one and a silver plated brass one is not explained...there would seem to be almost no difference in physical properties between the plated (less than one thousandth of an inch depth) and the plain brass one. Furthermore, there isn't any explanation given as to why you would need a metal at least as expensive as your horn...nor any explanation as to why a platinum LefreQue would work so much better. It would seem that you could temper or heat treat and harden several of these metals to change the effects a lot cheaper than you could buy a platinum one. What's so wonderful acoustically about platinum?

So given that this is all presented as "gospel" I am skeptical. The references are nice, but don't refer specifically to the LefreQue, as far as I can see, just to wall vibration research...so how does this apply directly to the LefreQue.
_________________
royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
etc-etc
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 5928

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a newer version called AirFreque - made from thin unadulterated air and pure elastic hairband. Sounds the best in the air of a grand Opera house.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
royjohn
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 2264
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked at another old thread on one of the tuba forums and there were a lot of skeptics there, too. If it were something I could try out and return and if the price were befitting a couple of small pieces of metal (or plastic) and some rubber bands, I might be tempted to try it, but not at the present prices. I might mock up something out of some brass I use to make jewelry items here and try it...I would guess you cannot return it after trial...
_________________
royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bert-Jan
New Member


Joined: 11 May 2017
Posts: 8
Location: Holland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

royjohn wrote:
I looked at another old thread on one of the tuba forums and there were a lot of skeptics there, too. If it were something I could try out and return and if the price were befitting a couple of small pieces of metal (or plastic) and some rubber bands, I might be tempted to try it, but not at the present prices. I might mock up something out of some brass I use to make jewelry items here and try it...I would guess you cannot return it after trial...


Here are some facts:

Anyone can buy a lefreQue starting at about $25. Most of our dealers have a trial and return policy (lefreQue also on our webshop). People like oxleyk -in the old thread you mentioned - mocked up something first and decided to buy a real lefreQue in the end because it just works. Mfan in the same thread, as well as many others, did blind testing with friends&family etc. and concluded lefreQue is the real deal. Many of the others (not all) have a strong opinion about it, but never really tried anything.

Here's a player who did try, although he was sceptical first. Now he does not want to play without anymore:

Test play by HOLGER MÜCK:
Arban´s Characteristic Studies Nr. 10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtIIG-Bh138

I do not understand why anyone needs to guess anything. Just ask us or come and try. we even come to you. Visit us at TMEA 2022. We give a clinic. We don't mind if you are sceptical, we have nothing to hide. ITG journal tested our product independently. You can read a lefreQue product review by column editor Brittany Hendricks in the June 2020 issue of ITG journal.

About material choices.
Please note that all solid materals, like metals, have different material-specific acoustic impedances. This is largely related to atom mass, density and sound speed. These parameters influence sound transmission and reflection in the wall of your MP and instrument. It is one of the reasons that different materials influence your tone differently. It is also why our bridge needs to be a good match with the material quality (brass, red brass, silverplated, solid silver etc.) of the horn and the mouthpiece.
_________________
lefreQue
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
royjohn
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 2264
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Bert-Jan,
Thanks for your reply. The Much excerpt is lovely, but doesn't prove anything.

It is nice to know that the leFreQue is returnable. If there were a local dealer where I could try it, I might.

You say the device starts at $25, and I'm sure that is true, but then there's the caveat that I need to match it to my mouthpiece and horn material. My mouthpieces are brass, silver plated, and my instruments are mostly lacquered brass...so IDK which material you would recommend. If I used the inexpensive plastic device on my horns, would it work?

You say that sound transmits differently in different materials, but I don't see any data on that. Also, what difference would there be in sound transmission between a brass device and a brass device with a less than one thousandth of an inch plate in silver? If the sound transmission depends on the density of the material, there wouldn't be much difference in density between these, would there?

I am also curious about the platinum device. Your literature makes it sound like this produces the best tone of all, but if device to instrument material match is important, I know of no instruments made of platinum, so I am puzzled by this.

I don't know whether you are claiming that the shape of this device or the bands are special and influence the performance or not. As I said, I could rig up a couple of pieces of brass and some rubber bands pretty easily and test those. Would they be likely to work?

As I said, I don't see any scientific date or double blind study, so forgive me if I remain skeptical.

Thanks for your willingness to dialog.
_________________
royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stuartissimo
Regular Member


Joined: 17 Dec 2021
Posts: 34
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This may be helpful for anyone who hasn't yet made up their mind whether they're for or against:


Link
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bert-Jan
New Member


Joined: 11 May 2017
Posts: 8
Location: Holland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

royjohn wrote:
Hello Bert-Jan,
Thanks for your reply. The Much excerpt is lovely, but doesn't prove anything.

It is nice to know that the leFreQue is returnable. If there were a local dealer where I could try it, I might.

You say the device starts at $25, and I'm sure that is true, but then there's the caveat that I need to match it to my mouthpiece and horn material. My mouthpieces are brass, silver plated, and my instruments are mostly lacquered brass...so IDK which material you would recommend. If I used the inexpensive plastic device on my horns, would it work?

You say that sound transmits differently in different materials, but I don't see any data on that. Also, what difference would there be in sound transmission between a brass device and a brass device with a less than one thousandth of an inch plate in silver? If the sound transmission depends on the density of the material, there wouldn't be much difference in density between these, would there?

I am also curious about the platinum device. Your literature makes it sound like this produces the best tone of all, but if device to instrument material match is important, I know of no instruments made of platinum, so I am puzzled by this.

I don't know whether you are claiming that the shape of this device or the bands are special and influence the performance or not. As I said, I could rig up a couple of pieces of brass and some rubber bands pretty easily and test those. Would they be likely to work?

As I said, I don't see any scientific date or double blind study, so forgive me if I remain skeptical.

Thanks for your willingness to dialog.


Hello Royjohn,

You are welcome.

1) I didn't post the Muck excerpt to prove anything, but of course you can try to play it like that without our sound bridge
2) yes our composite lefreQue will work, but it will probably not be the best match. In general we advice to use the same material as your horn/MP or better. In your case i'd recommend to start trying a regular brass or silverplated. Our latest model the 999 finesilver is a worth a try as well.
3) Did you know that when frequencies travel through material, some travel more through the surface other through the core. So plating does matter. Why should people care to buy a silver or goldplated MP or body if it doesn't make any (tonal) difference? It is definitely not only esthetics. Just ask around.
4) Platinum plating and solid platinum is used in flutes. We made solid gold and platinum lefreQues, because customers asked for it. Not the other way around. We normally advise our regular assortment.
5) if you look up "acoustical impedance" in google or wikipedia you will find the formula on how to calculate it and tables with the different numbers for all metals.
6) there is a lot more to our bridges, but as an individual you can try. We do have a patent so companies may not copy. The guy I mentioned earlier came up with a paperclip binder and heard and felt the diffrence and then decided to buy our product.
7) MDPI Acoustics a free access Suisse based scientific journal recently published this:

Abstract: https://www.mdpi.com/2624-599X/3/2/27
HTML Version: https://www.mdpi.com/2624-599X/3/2/27/htm
PDF Version: https://www.mdpi.com/2624-599X/3/2/27/pdf

If you want to know more just send me a PM
_________________
lefreQue
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Other Toys All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group