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High Notes for an Easy Warm Up and Warm Down Routine?


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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rapier232 wrote:
Interesting thread.

Coming from a British Brass Band background, we (I), never paid much attention to any warm up. 20 years ago we’d turn up, get out our instruments and then together we’d play a couple of hymn tunes. That was it, then full rehearsal. If you are a Contest Band you might have a short rehearsal before going onstage. But It could be ages before you go on. You are not allowed to play any notes at all until you start the test piece. So we (I ) got used to not warming up.

Now, 30 years later and now on trumpet instead of cornet and tenor horn, I might run the C scale once or twice, but that’s all. Same if I’m in a Pit Band, run a scale a couple of times and I’m good to go. Even just the tuning note seems to be enough to set me up. Granted I’m not the greatest trumpet player and never will be, but I get by. Maybe I’m doing it all wrong, but I’ll never know. 😎


My background is similiar to yours. Back at the time after rushing to the brass band rehearsal we played Abide with me, Sandon and maybe another hymn but that was all. Then straight to the Padstow Life boat, or/and Poet and Peasant. or the dreaded Dambusters. Interlude coming up a lot of sore, stiff lips. But we were young.......

Eventually we understood, at least those of us who played the more demanding parts, that we lasted a lot longer if we prior to the rehearsals were lucky enough to have the time to do a warm up.
Ever heard of athletes who jump/play/box/run do so without a proper warm up?
I do hold that the risk of getting an injury is greater if no warm up.

Today I have to do a proper warm up, but the length/scope varies day by day. If I very early on play in the high register (high C or above), even with the least possible pressure I can notice a certain numbness. If I play the same tone after my lips have become to feel soft - no numbness at all. And then I can go on in the high register for a very long period (but this is also the result of being properly trained).

Furthermore - for me - the warm up period becomes even more necessary when I´m in an intense period of practicing; such as before a contest, a concert. By the way - before such an event, I do my main warm up at home; then everyone does a shorter warm up prior to the "show". I always keep my mouthpiece warm by storing it in a pocket.

So I will continue to argue that a certain, personally adapted warm up period done in a progressive way (from low register and up)is beneficial.

Should be interesting to hear what the pros think of this
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steve0930
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Trumpet Players

Seymor. You are not going out on a limb ¹ with:
Quote:
So I will continue to argue that a certain, personally adapted warm up period done in a progressive way (from low register and up)is beneficial.
We know:
95%+ of Players, seasoned pro's included, agree with you which is why:
95% + of warm up material starts low. The overwhelming consensus is that starting easy means starting low.
100% of players have their own unique embouchure - (I've called it a unique RO/RI index. )

What we don't know: (why I am ready to go out on a limb)
If everyone's embouchure is different is it sensible that everyone warms up the same way - starting low?
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
Only 3 players on this thread favour an alternative starting high - option - which encourages me - could this thread offer something new for someone like me who has an RI index bias and are prone to poor lip days when notes above the staff are not easy?

High Notes as Easy Notes
Robert P - rather than getting stuck on the word "Easy" if it helps I could say that high notes are more "sympathetic to, on the same wave length, attuned, aligned, in sync, harmonized" with my existing Embouchure set up.

The Reframe, Imagine This:
Quote:
You are a Diving Coach. Your pupil, aged 8, has mastered the 3 m board. You take them up to the 10m board for the first time. Your pupil is now looking apprehensive and fearful. "Coach.. it's too high.. I can't.. can we please go down". You reply " You're right.. we 're 3x higher..but how much more time ² are you going to have to nail your back 2.5 somersault now.. how much easier is it going to be?!" Your pupil frowns in thought then starts to grin. An hour later you're in the car park, off home, kids are surrounding this pupil. "How did you do it.. why did you keep going back..wasn't it hard.. did Coach force You?" as you turn the ignition key you hear your pupil reply "Nah.. it's easier.. easy as pie.. " now you're the one smiling as you pull out of the car park.

For a Reframe to work you need to work it out for yourself. 6 weeks ago I realized that because notes above the staff are more in sync with my personal RI biased embouchure than notes below the staff they are, for me, my easy notes and that starting below the staff whilst advantageous for someone with an RO biased RO/RI index could be disadvantageous for me.

The Robert P challenge
When I read your Post last night I thought - I'm not so sure about the C above the staff, yet. But G on top of the staff versus G in the staff - less air - easy note - why not! This morning the first note I played was quiet G on top of the staff - sailed out . 30 seconds. At times the Bb partial above floated out, felt very easy. Then I did the G in the staff - felt as easy but at 25 seconds my tummy started shaking - lack of air. Yet on the Greg Wing 20minute warm up routine the G above the staff first appears on line 17 of 19 lines.

Dayton - good input - will try it out.

Best wishes for all and stay safe, cheers Steve in Helsinki.

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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve0930 wrote:
... I could say that high notes are more "sympathetic to, on the same wave length, attuned, aligned, in sync, harmonized" with my existing Embouchure set up.
...
I realized that because notes above the staff are more in sync with my personal RI biased embouchure than notes below the staff they are, for me, my easy notes and that starting below the staff whilst advantageous for someone with an RO biased RO/RI index could be disadvantageous for me.
...

--------------------------------------
That makes sense from the view of your 'current / RI biased' embouchure.
But is that embouchure also a relaxed and gentle 'starting point' for warm-up?

I think that most people start their warm-up from 'what is easy NOW', and expand up and down to include a wider range of easy playing. And when a useful range of easy playing is achieved the actual 'warm-up' stops and actual 'practice' begins.

What is practiced might be very similar to that done during the warm-up, but with attention on the playing quality, with little concern about whether adequate warm-up has been done.
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steve0930
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jay - hope your New Year has started well.
Quote:
I think that most people start their warm-up from 'what is easy NOW'
Yes. That's my contention - High notes first thing in the day as optimum easy notes for some embouchure types. The Warm Up has to be "Easy now" for any player to set you up for the day. If you have an RO bias then you should continue with your low note start. When I did my Robert P challenge this morning and playing G top of staff as first notes of the day I was so relaxed the Bb above the staff was floating out unprompted.
cheers Steve
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve!
Please clarify RI biased!

After 6-7 years with the BE I’m quite aware of the differences between RI and RO.
As I understand it these extreme positions/ configurations of the chops were designed in order to enhance lip flexibility, a seemless transition between puckering and ”non puckering”.
During intense practice periods - such as prior to concerts - I can notice that my need for RI configured chops begins above A/B (above staff); below that I can maintain my default configuration. - more or less puckered, tongue down or up etc etc.
I tend to perceive your RI biased chops as using this RI also in the ”normal” register,.
If so I can understand your idea of starting up - up, However if this is.what you mean - I might as well argue that this is to shoot crows with a bazooka if I may dare using this analogy. I can see a risk of a somewhat pinched middle register + lessened flexibility.
So please explain!
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve0930 wrote:


The Robert P challenge

When I read your Post last night I thought - I'm not so sure about the C above the staff, yet. But G on top of the staff versus G in the staff - less air - easy note - why not! This morning the first note I played was quiet G on top of the staff - sailed out . 30 seconds. At times the Bb partial above floated out, felt very easy. Then I did the G in the staff - felt as easy but at 25 seconds my tummy started shaking - lack of air. Yet on the Greg Wing 20minute warm up routine the G above the staff first appears on line 17 of 19 lines.

If it isn't true of the high C - I assume you tried it and it wasn't happening? - which you've made clear is within your range then saying "notes above the staff are easiest" isn't the way it is.

Before accepting your long tone experiment results I would want to be standing there watching you but that notwithstanding you and I both know that if we were to run you ragged on the horn with some demanding playing the higher notes are going to fall by the wayside first.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve0930 wrote:
... When I did my Robert P challenge this morning and playing G top of staff as first notes of the day I was so relaxed the Bb above the staff was floating out unprompted. ...

--------------------------
My understanding of the embouchure setting that Steve uses for 'first notes' is that it is relaxed / unforced, and has a configuration that he finds appropriate for high pitches (or at least above mid-range). And he can play those pitches in an 'easy manner' without embouchure adjustment - without embouchure stress.

Perhaps it is just a matter of what initial embouchure setting a player 'gravitates towards' for their first notes.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I experimented with this in the distant past, with the following results.

If I began with a high note using a rolled in embouchure, I was able to maintain flexibility in playing later in the day, no matter what range I played in.

If I started off with high notes using a conventional embouchure setting, later in the day my chops started to stiffen up on me and I started losing flexibility sooner than otherwise.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
I experimented with this in the distant past, with the following results.

If I began with a high note using a rolled in embouchure, I was able to maintain flexibility in playing later in the day, no matter what range I played in.

If I started off with high notes using a conventional embouchure setting, later in the day my chops started to stiffen up on me and I started losing flexibility sooner than otherwise.

With any setting if your chops are fried is it easier to play notes on the staff or near the top of your range?

Btw what do you consider to be a conventional setting?
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steve0930
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello All - and thanks for all the replies.

What is RI Bias? Jay has the answer:
Quote:
embouchure setting that Steve uses for 'first notes' is that it is relaxed / unforced, and has a configuration that he finds appropriate for high pitches (or at least above mid-range). And he can play those pitches in an 'easy manner' without embouchure adjustment - without embouchure stress.

If you can play notes above the staff in a relaxed / unforced manner as easy warm up notes first thing in the day then it would suggest your RO/RI index is RI biased. Your lips set up, degree of roll in, lip tension, jaw alignment, tongue, face tension are calibrated towards playing easily notes at the top of or above the staff. If the first notes of the day for this type of player are bottom of staff or below the staff then you warm up is not synchronized with your RI/RO index (making you more prone to poor lip days/which for me meant struggling above the staff )

If your RO/RI index is RI biased that doesn't mean you are necessarily, yet, an accomplished high note player. (I clearly am not) but warming up/down as high as you easily can(for some this might mean at least above mid range as Jay writes) - does mean you are likely to become one quicker.

Roll In (RI) set up - No
I don't think at any time (Except when I am doing some Balanced Embouchure (BE) exercises ) "now I will move more to RI set up" I have the idea that I am playing on the same embouchure all the time - my "default configuration" if you like Seymor. But because I am using BE and Flexus a lot (Flexus large interval jumps on almost every page) my embouchure is becoming more balanced - and you're right Seymor - the more balanced your embouchure the more seamless your playing. Clearly when you are doing a Flexus Etude jump from G below the staff to C above the staff your embouchure is having to to some sort of "cartwheel" but I am just focusing on hitting the note resonantly, being as seamless as I can, just the music if you like.

But as Robert P points out earlier - to accelerate development you need to be acutely aware of what is happening ¹. I have noticed in the last 4 weeks- especially doing the etude interval jumps - how a forward pucker is also helping for notes above the staff. (Foward pucker is part of the RO index - so every player has element of both RI and RO within their conventional embouchure)

"Easy Notes?" Robert writes:
Quote:
If it isn't true of the high C - I assume you tried it and it wasn't happening? - which you've made clear is within your range then saying "notes above the staff are easiest" isn't the way it is.

When I read your "challenge" I have to admit I was a bit nervous the next morning (because of course I had to do the challenge as part of the warm up notes) when I did the G to G challenge so I was chuffed / pleased with the way it went.

Of course Robert you can argue that the next step is the C above the staff - I have been playing an easy C for 4 months ² - I am sure that I 'll succeed there to - but if I do / don't misses the point because:

A) If my "method" holds good for G top of staff why leave that note to line 17 of 19 lines in the Greg Wing Warm Up (traditional start low warm up approach) - why not make it line 1 (For a player with RI bias) ?
B) What's the point of trying to persuade me otherwise? What kind of coach tries to convince the pupil, who has never been diving better, that he or she is wrong to think that the 10metre board is easier than the 3metre? ³

Warming Down: Robert writes
Quote:
the higher notes are going to fall by the wayside first.
This was my mindset 6 weeks ago - not anymore. I finish my session /warm down with easy notes above the staff. Picking up and Putting down the Horn has never been more FUN!

Hope this helps clarify a bit. All the best

Stay safe! Steve in Helsinki

PS Just taken my last child back to the airport / Uni / at 0500 in the morning - it feels like yesterday when I picked him up and we had WHAM "Do they know its Christmas" in the Car - time..where does it go..

Note ¹ Inner Game of Tennis would describe this as giving your intuitive self 2 a nudge towards learning.
Note ² C above the staff was easy 4 months ago on a "Good Lip" day.
Note ³ The 3 Metre Coach!
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve0930 wrote:

"Easy Notes?" Robert writes:
Quote:
If it isn't true of the high C - I assume you tried it and it wasn't happening? - which you've made clear is within your range then saying "notes above the staff are easiest" isn't the way it is.

When I read your "challenge" I have to admit I was a bit nervous the next morning (because of course I had to do the challenge as part of the warm up notes) when I did the G to G challenge so I was chuffed / pleased with the way it went.

Of course Robert you can argue that the next step is the C above the staff - I have been playing an easy C for 4 months ² - I am sure that I 'll succeed there to - but if I do / don't misses the point because:

That's *part* of what I outlined, and again until I personally watch you do it and am satisfied the execution of long-tones isn't skewed to achieve a particular result I remain skeptical. Even your un-corroborated self-reporting doesn't claim success at the top of your range which according to you is easier.

Have you noticed that there hasn't been a flood of people chiming in concurring that range over the staff is the easiest range for them too?

If you don't succeed it doesn't miss the point, it negates the point - i.e. the claim that of everyone who's ever picked up the horn for you alone notes over the staff are the easiest, ignoring every lead player whose chops have folded during a tough gig and of course ignoring that oddly enough that this alleged ease "above the staff" cuts off at a high C.


Quote:
B) What's the point of trying to persuade me otherwise?
What kind of coach tries to convince the pupil, who has never been diving better, that he or she is wrong to think that the 10metre board is easier than the 3metre? ³

My point is to express skepticism for the benefit of those looking for information and direction.

Quote:
If everyone's embouchure is different is it sensible that everyone warms up the same way - starting low?

Yes, it's perfectly reasonable to start out lower regardless of embouchure type. No matter what kind of embouchure someone has there are still constants among all of them as to what has to happen as one plays higher and lower. Among these is greater tension across the vibrating tissue as one goes higher which occurs largely as a result of greater muscular tension that gets transferred to the vibrating tissue.


Quote:
Robert writes
Quote:
the higher notes are going to fall by the wayside first.
This was my mindset 6 weeks ago - not anymore. I finish my session /warm down with easy notes above the staff. Picking up and Putting down the Horn has never been more FUN!

As I say - let's see what happens if *I'm* standing there directing your practice session.

I wish you enjoyment and success in playing the horn but I think you're asserting some things that aren't reality.
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steve0930
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Robert
Thanks for the quick reply.
You write
Quote:
Have you noticed that there's hasn't been a flood of people chiming in concurring that range over the staff is the easiest range for them too?
doesn't that rather prove my point? It was my motivation to start this thread.

One of the best things I have ever read on this forum is:
Quote:
that learning to play a high note is like learning to pick a lock - it's a knack - and you might not even be sure how you did it. .
sorry I don't remember to whom I should attribute this quote.

I suspect the major point of difference between you and me Robert is that I believe - rightly or wrongly - that the difference in embouchure tension between for example an E at the top of the staff and a C above the staff is TINY if you have a Balanced Embouchure - more effort is not the secret for unpicking the lock. If the answer is not more effort this begs the question what then is the role of the Warm Up?

I see the warm up as getting one's embouchure into the right place to discover the knack / to start unpicking the lock. (to play the high notes) And I'm saying that with an RI bias that right place is NOT starting low but high where you RI biased Embocuhure wants to be/ feels comfortable/is in sync/ With an RO biased embouchure on the other hand it makes sense to start low - so each warm up is unique to each player's embouchure.

Of course I am an absolute novice, only had 6 trumpet lessons in my life and given none but when you and Jeff Smiley (I am a big fan of his Balanced Embouchure book which is why I am talking about the RO/RI index) were contributing on a thread a month ago or so ago and Mr Smiley wrote
Quote:
I have had 14-year-olds pull the horn out of the case and start cold on a high C... when kids are trained properly, this is not in the least difficult
doesn't that make you just a bit curious?

And Robert - I love it that you challenge me like this - I also suspect we are both equally captivated by the Trumpet - we just have different ideas on how to unlock its secrets. If we all agreed on everything that would be no need for this forum - we would just buy the IKEA "How to play the trumpet" manual

cheers and stay safe Steve in Helsinki
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
... Have you noticed that there's hasn't been a flood of people chiming in concurring that range over the staff is the easiest range for them too? ...

---------------------------------
My understanding is that Steve is not claiming that over the staff note are 'always' the easiest for him - only that (some of) those notes are easy for him to produce with his 'first notes' embouchure.

I think that Steve's 'first notes' embouchure is set (meaning some deliberate adjustment, not fully relaxed) in a position for playing those notes.
I doubt that many players use a completely relaxed / non-adjusted embouchure for first notes - or any others.

A good question is whether Steve's 'first notes' embouchure is 'natural' for him, or whether it has developed through his Balanced Embouchure practice.

A related question is whether, for most players, it would be worthwhile to find and develop a 'first notes' embouchure setting that is associated with their 'embouchure type' inclination - or choose dependent on the physical state of their lips and muscles at the time of first notes.

There are several issues here - among them are:
1) Is Steve's method really the best path for him.
2) Is there some basic embouchure information that other players can benefit from.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pops Mc Laughlin recommends that the "default" setting of the chops should be that which enables one to play a G, top of staff. Any time of the day.
During normal circumstances this does not mean - in my case - that I will have to perform a RI in order to play that G. F" below staff up to this G normally with puckered lips, tongue low then rising, finally touches lower teeth while at the same time closer to the "roof" when progressing up to this G
If I get tired, then the need for the RI often awakens around this G, most of the time it´s "on" above G.
I have noticed, as Keheulani that if I begin the day (experimenting)using the RI - most of the time then no stiff lips later on.

But: the very essence of the RI and the RO settings is the development of the smooth seemless transition from the one to the other, whenever the latter "kicks" in. Also - because of this, progressive lip flexibilities are particularly useful - enhancing the transition.
The RI studies are by themselves rather demanding; done in a careful way they also are a smart way of developing strength.
When I´m in 'concert' mode I can do the three/four variations in a row, starting out on C, then E. But this is really a mouthful if I dare say so. Demanding! If I try to do so, when in an every day non concert mode - doing this might even be detrimental. Secure the base!!! Then rise!
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve0930 wrote:
Hi Robert
Thanks for the quick reply.
You write
Quote:
Have you noticed that there's hasn't been a flood of people chiming in concurring that range over the staff is the easiest range for them too?
doesn't that rather prove my point?

If no one is saying this is their experience what point of yours do you think it proves?

I submit that people generally initiate their warm-up up lower and find lower notes easier to play because of the commonality of human physiology. As stated I'm skeptical that you're genuinely a deviation from this.


Quote:
One of the best things I have ever read on this forum is:
Quote:
that learning to play a high note is like learning to pick a lock - it's a knack - and you might not even be sure how you did it. .
sorry I don't remember to whom I should attribute this quote.

A lot of people have said this - I've said something similar repeatedly with the caveat that the clearer an idea of the specifics of how you do it the better. It's still more work to play high than low.


Quote:
I suspect the major point of difference between you and me Robert is that I believe - rightly or wrongly - that the difference in embouchure tension between for example an E at the top of the staff and a C above the staff is TINY if you have a Balanced Embouchure - more effort is not the secret for unpicking the lock. If the answer is not more effort this begs the question what then is the role of the Warm Up?

I would say whether you're right or not is pretty crucial.

More effort *by itself* isn't the secret - if you're not doing it in a way that's conducive to success, increasing your blowing effort until you turn purple and your eyes bleed isn't going to make it happen. However playing higher absolutely does require more effort.

Something it seems you're missing when you say "the difference in embouchure tension between for example an E at the top of the staff and a C above the staff is TINY" is that the tension on a given pitch isn't fixed. Playing for example a 3rd space C softly is going to be a different experience than playing it blastissimo. You'll find if you play louder on a given pitch your teeth will open a bit, the embouchure tension will change - further though you won't see it unless you use a visualizer the aperture gets bigger as you play louder on a given pitch - one of the reasons I regard obsessing about "aperture control" to be silly, but I digress. Now, to play a loud high C absolutely takes more work than playing a loud third space C.

Quote:
I see the warm up as getting one's embouchure into the right place to discover the knack / to start unpicking the lock. (to play the high notes) And I'm saying that with an RI bias that right place is NOT starting low but high where you RI biased Embocuhure wants to be/ feels comfortable/is in sync/ With an RO biased embouchure on the other hand it makes sense to start low - so each warm up is unique to each player's embouchure.

Again, your scheme seems to be missing a point - your goal is to play the whole range of the instrument - not just high notes.

Quote:
Of course I am an absolute novice, only had 6 trumpet lessons in my life and given none but when you and Jeff Smiley (I am a big fan of his Balanced Embouchure book which is why I am talking about the RO/RI index) were contributing on a thread a month ago or so ago and Mr Smiley wrote
Quote:
I have had 14-year-olds pull the horn out of the case and start cold on a high C... when kids are trained properly, this is not in the least difficult
doesn't that make you just a bit curious?

I've seen the anecdote about 14 year olds playing a cold high C. I can play a cold high C. Whether all of his students can do that or just a few who happen to have cooperative chops I don't know. I also haven't heard any of them execute it and what they sound like. I don't think it's ideal for me or for them and I don't think that's the end goal. I further don't believe high C is easier for them than 3rd space C.

If you genuinely have issues playing on the staff when cold or at any point I submit there's a fundamental problem with your playing mechanics that you need to fix. I sense that you're focusing on things that are counterproductive for you.
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Last edited by Robert P on Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:15 am; edited 7 times in total
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Robert P wrote:
... Have you noticed that there's hasn't been a flood of people chiming in concurring that range over the staff is the easiest range for them too? ...

---------------------------------
My understanding is that Steve is not claiming that over the staff note are 'always' the easiest for him - only that (some of) those notes are easy for him to produce with his 'first notes' embouchure.

I think that Steve's 'first notes' embouchure is set (meaning some deliberate adjustment, not fully relaxed) in a position for playing those notes.
I doubt that many players use a completely relaxed / non-adjusted embouchure for first notes - or any others.

I'm pretty sure I've never heard the term "first notes embouchure" before. My "first note embouchure" is whatever happens when I play my first note. ~shrug~

Is it supposed to mean some specific setup that's distinctly different than what you would normally use? I can't say that strikes me as a valid or useful notion. The first thought that comes to mind is *why?*

Anyway, going back to his first post he actually seems to be bouncing around as to exactly *what* he means.

He talks about a mid-session issue.

Quote:
One day my lips were not feeling great - I was struggling with notes in the staff - so in a moment of cussedness I went for Flexus Ex 9 page 22 - a line of music 24 notes at top of or above the staff (highest being c above the staff) On my "struggling-in-the-staff- lips the line of music came out as easy as you like.


Then he jumps to warming up.

Quote:
Yes - we should warm up with "Easy notes" but is it possible the for some trumpet players - easy notes are high notes - (irrespective of the player's level of proficiency and how well he or she can play those high notes)?

He seems to be reading a lot into this comment:

Quote:
a lead player blithely announced "well I'm a lead layer so High notes are easy for me"

Did that lead player assert that the high range is easier than on the staff? Did he say he starts every day blasting G's and double C's?

I propose that if he's really struggling with notes in the staff that there's a problem with his playing mechanics.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:

I'm pretty sure I've never heard the term "first notes embouchure" before. My "first note embouchure" is whatever happens when I play my first note. ~shrug~
...
I propose that if he's really struggling with notes in the staff that there's a problem with his playing mechanics.

--------------------------------------
In this example, the embouchure setting is given priority, and the appropriate pitch for that setting needs to be recognized. Yes, that is backwards from what is done in typical playing.

By 'first note embouchure' I do simply mean whatever embouchure setting is used / chosen for playing that first blow. And if an inappropriate pitch is attempted for that embouchure setting, it will probably not be produced correctly.

Learning what embouchure setting works for what pitches is critical, and perhaps that is the 'playing mechanics' that Steve is working on by realizing what note pitch is appropriate for the feel of his 'first note embouchure'. Then expanding that knowledge to include adjusting the embouchure setting for other notes.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Robert P wrote:

I'm pretty sure I've never heard the term "first notes embouchure" before. My "first note embouchure" is whatever happens when I play my first note. ~shrug~
...
I propose that if he's really struggling with notes in the staff that there's a problem with his playing mechanics.

--------------------------------------
In this example, the embouchure setting is given priority, and the appropriate pitch for that setting needs to be recognized. Yes, that is backwards from what is done in typical playing.

By 'first note embouchure' I do simply mean whatever embouchure setting is used / chosen for playing that first blow. And if an inappropriate pitch is attempted for that embouchure setting, it will probably not be produced correctly.

I'm not familiar with BE but while what he's said doesn't consistently go along with "In this example, the embouchure setting is given priority, and the appropriate pitch for that setting needs to be recognized." does BE methodology say you're supposed to set your chops a certain way and that's considered the most important priority? If so, again - *why?* If Steve is a BE devotee going by what he's saying I don't see that it's serving him well.

Saying that "My chops (or my favored playing methodology) favor high notes" falls a bit flat given the context that we're talking about someone with a barely high C range - further what his playing actually sounds like below, on or above the staff is an unknown, at least I've never heard him.

I maintain that *anyone* should be able to easily play notes in the staff as their first notes and if he can't it isn't because he has some unique physiology but because his playing mechanics are messed up.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone wanting to know about BE- there's an entire forum on the topic with these questions answered.

But BTAIM, Robert, there are exercises in BE that work on the extremes of the trumpet's register. One is super Pedal Tones, another Rolled-in Embouchure. One forms the high notes with a rolled-in embouchure and gradually brings it into the "normal" playing range, while the rolled-put lip formation takes care of the lowest range.

The goal is NOT one type of embouchure. The purpose is to gradually let your embouchure find the most workable positions appropriate to where you are playing at any given moment.

You do, probably, use a subtle rolling in of the embouchure when playing in the extreme register but there is no aim to use rolled-in setting for everyplace, i.e. one embouchure setting (in this example, rolled-in) for everything.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello again players

The Holy Grail
Robert my mistake for not being clearer
Quote:
If you genuinely have issues playing on the staff when cold or at any point I submit there's a fundamental problem with your playing mechanics that you need to fix
so to be clear now - I started this thread because as a novice player I noticed I was prone to "good" and "poor" lip days. On poor lip days at the end of the session I would not be happy with my quality of sound and endurance in the staff and would not be able to play a c above the staff easily at any point in the day.

My contention is that because one can always play notes easily in the middle of and below the staff are we to conclude that that is therefore the best way to warm up / warn down for all players of all embouchure types? Is that the best way to ensure we easily open up the whole range of the instrument? Is that the optimum way to discover the Trumpet's Holy Grail - the Balanced Embouchure?

Default G
Seymor writes
Quote:
Pops Mc Laughlin recommends that the "default" setting of the chops should be that which enables one to play a G, top of staff. Any time of the day.
when Robert P threw down his challenge that was my immediate reaction - I'm not sure about the C but G top of staff why not? For the last six weeks with my new approach the first note I have played every day has been G top of staff, the second the C above.

Easy versus Loud
Robert in your last couple of threads you have brought volume into the equation referencing "loud" "blasting" "blastissimo" high Cs. So my "Easy note" warm up is played just as Ryan shows on the video.

Balanced Embouchure (BE)
Kehaulani
Quote:
You do, probably, use a subtle rolling in of the embouchure when playing in the extreme register but there is no aim to use rolled-in setting for everyplace
Sir, I think we are edging closer to agreement on our understanding of Jeff Smiley's BE works. The key word in your sentence I have taken the liberty of putting in bold. Your intuitive self taking control of your Embouchure, your analytical self whilst it still has the responsibility for acute observation (the one thing Robert and I agree on!) is still not quite sure what's going on- hence the "probably." And as Seymor points out lip flexibility studies (In Flexus especially extreme) accelerates the intuitive learning.

The Human Touch
Robert writes
Quote:
I submit that people generally initiate their warm-up up lower and find lower notes easier to play because of the commonality of human physiology. As stated I'm skeptical that you're genuinely a deviation from this.
this commonality of human physiology doesn't prevent there being as many embouchure types as there are players. I'm now more convinced than ever - thanks to all the contributions on this thread - that each embouchure type, each player needs to find their optimum warm up be it starting low, middle or high and depending on their RO/RI index. Some players will be able to play that easy default G top of staff for 30 seconds easily - for others it might be an easy default E etc. As one's embouchure evolves so too should your warm up. (See Note ¹)

The Witness ¹

Robert writes
Quote:
we're talking about someone with a barely high C range
It's worse than that Robert - 6 weeks ago a poor lip day meant easy C above staff not even in my range at all.

Members of the Jury ², You ask any seasoned Pro how he or she learnt the knack, what was the breakthrough factor? How can he or she with all honesty remember a series of events that happened decades ago and have been refined every day since? But if you ask me, a relative novice, how I have gone from no easy C above the staff to hundreds every day, easily, I can recall the events with perfect clarity, I can remember them as clearly as Yesterday - because it was Yesterday.

Thanks for all the contributions, best wishes and stay safe
Steve in Helsinki

Note. ¹ Robert, I understand my comments, as a novice player, are akin to a red rag thrown at a Bull. Not my intention. So I don't know if it helps but if I was to call another "Expert" witness, from the thread Stuart found, Nate wrote in 2006;
Quote:
I think after you've been a player for a number of years, your warm up requirements change. Today I sat in with a student's HS jazz band. 7AM - uhg! I warmed up with 2 sustained high C's, 2 dbl Gs (4 lines) then open harmonics from low C to dbl G a couple times. A big fat pedal C, and an even fatter dbl pedal C and I'm ready to go. The lead player didn't show, so I filled in. I could not do this when I was 20 - I had a disciplined 30 minute warmup.

Quote:
Personally, I don't understand how you all do this. This is not something any of my teachers have EVER recommended and It's something I don't think I could ever do.

Try it, I don't think you will permanently injure yourself! They're just notes after all. Relax and think about what it feels like to play a nice easy high C, then just do it.


Note ² My Dad was both a Prosecutor in the Royal Navy and then a Judge so you can see where I get it from!
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