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Does horn material make any difference at all?


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LaggsZ
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:01 pm    Post subject: Does horn material make any difference at all? Reply with quote

I frequent both this trumpet and a saxophone forum. I can't tell you how much discussion has occurred over there in saxophones regarding whether horn material can impact sound. The largest and most vocal group says absolutely not. Not the finish, not the material, not the thickness, not the weight. Just the internal dimensions, that's all. Whether it's made of concrete (been done), or plastic (been done), wood (been done) or the usual metal, it makes no difference in the sound. My simple question is this: has the vast majority of the trumpet world reached the same conclusion? That there is nothing to it? That is either shady marketing or subjective nonsense? For example, my Conn 38b sounds like it feels to me... heavy, concentrated, a bit edgy... It's hard to know if it's all in my head. By the way, yes, I tried the search function, thinking this was a perennial subject of discussion here, and I didn't get what I was searching for -- perhaps used the wrong search terms?
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Does horn material make any difference at all? Reply with quote

LaggsZ wrote:
I frequent both this trumpet and a saxophone forum. I can't tell you how much discussion has occurred over there in saxophones regarding whether horn material can impact sound. The largest and most vocal group says absolutely not. Not the finish, not the material, not the thickness, not the weight. Just the internal dimensions, that's all. Whether it's made of concrete (been done), or plastic (been done), wood (been done) or the usual metal, it makes no difference in the sound. My simple question is this: has the vast majority of the trumpet world reached the same conclusion? That there is nothing to it? That is either shady marketing or subjective nonsense? For example, my Conn 38b sounds like it feels to me... heavy, concentrated, a bit edgy... It's hard to know if it's all in my head. By the way, yes, I tried the search function, thinking this was a perennial subject of discussion here, and I didn't get what I was searching for -- perhaps used the wrong search terms?


Yes a solid sterling silver bell will sound different than a solid copper bell as will a yellow brass as does gold brass. Nickle silver, solid sterling silver, and yellow brass leadpipes and parts make different sounds.

Now when you are talking about the same horn that is either gold plated, silver plated, raw brass, or lacquered. No they sound the same.
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krax
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a bit easier to test this on trumpets than on saxes. There are trumpets with interchangeable bells out there, so not only manufacturers but also players can get a trumpet with identical bells made out of different materials and test it themselves. Yes, they will sound different.

I'm a bit surprised though, I mean saxophone mouthpieces are available in different materials and they certainly sound different to me.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no question that horn material does impact sound: The different materials vibrate differently. That doesn't mean that the difference is noticeable to us, so there may not be much practical impact. All other things being equal -- bell flare, thickness/weight, seam, bead, etc. (which is not always possible) -- the subtle difference between, say, yellow brass and gold brass would be harder to distinguish than more dissimilar materials like rose brass and titanium.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have inspired me to write a book! I'll start with the Table Of Contents, right now. Let's see...

Just kidding.

1 - Materials. I asked The Last Brass Master, Zig Kanstul, "What difference do the various materials make?" His answer? "Colors." In other words (in fact his words), "If you believe something makes a difference, then it does."

However, I have been able to compare the same model horns (sometimes the same horn) with different materials for individual parts, like nickel vs. yellow brass, and could feel the difference. Because the feel was different, the sound changed.

Not the basic timbre, but the response to the player's input. I have a yellow brass tuning bit for my Wild Thing flugelhorn and I also have a nickel one that I purchased for my previous Kanstul 1025 flugelhorn. Same exact part in two different materials. The brass bit has a softer response, compared to the crisp response of the nickel bit. I can feel it and I could hear the change it made to Harry Kim's playing when he put the nickel bit in his Kanstul Besson, which uses the same part.

Still, it's not a cut and dried thing. When Flip Oakes introduced the option of a copper bell to his lineup of WT horns, he told me that, "Brass gives the horn an 'eh-h-h' sound. Copper gives it an 'aw-w-w-h-h" sound." I hear just the opposite. Maybe our photographer friend and TH member, Retlaw, has it right when he put this idea in his signature: It's amazing how much we hear with our eyes. Or perhaps Byron Autrey had it right when he told me that, "People hear differently."

2 - Finish. Being a close friend with Flip Oakes has given me the opportunity to sample many examples of the same horn models. Flip regularly had both silver and lacquer horns in stock at his shop. The early years, he didn't have copper, only brass bells. We have compared them in his shop and gathered a selection of them to play in the sanctuary of my hometown church. I have always heard the same difference between each finish, no matter the horn. Silver plate gives solidity, a dark weight, to the sound. Lacquer (polyester-acrylic) has a brittle hiss, if I listen closely either while playing or while standing nearby. When I ordered my second WT flugelhorn with a copper bell and raw finish, I could compare it to my silver plated brass one. I had my son, Charlie, listen to them from another room, too. The conclusion was always the same. The silver horn spoke with a darker, more assertive sound. The raw copper horn sounded lighter and more lyrical in nature. I found its response to reflect that, so that is the horn I kept, when 1957Tim needed to buy a flugelhorn for himself.

3 - Bell taper & Thickness. One of the first things that Flip Oakes and I did together was compare my 1976 Benge 5X with the custom one-off Wilmington Benge sent to me from Delaware by Russ DeGate. Russ had suggested that I could write an article for this forum, which I did.

Anyway, Flip brought a Wild Thing (which became my personal horn), a Kanstul Chicago 1001 (with Total Enhancement; fantastic horn!) and a Celebration. I brought my friend's rebuilt CG Benge, along with the Wilmington and my own Benge. I sat out in one of the pews and listened to all of these horns with all their different bells and bell thicknesses (ranging from 0.022" down to 0.016") while Flip played them for me. The basic timbre was always the same, horn-to-horn. That was a huge surprise!

It was in the fringes of the sound that the differences could be heard. For instance, the CG Benge, with its ultralight 0.016" bell, would "break up" when Flip played sudden shifts in dynamic levels, pp to sfzz, whereas the WT (0.022") would stay consistent. The two 5Xs had a little different bell thicknesses (0.020" vs 0.018") and I could hear a lightness and agility coming from the lighter Wilmington bell.

I could go on about heavy valve caps, harmonic balancers, tuning slides and all manner of things I've experienced over the past 16 years, but this is enough for here.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:38 am    Post subject: Re: Does horn material make any difference at all? Reply with quote

chef8489 wrote:
...Yes a solid sterling silver bell will sound different than a solid copper bell as will a yellow brass as does gold brass. Nickle silver, solid sterling silver, and yellow brass leadpipes and parts make different sounds.


Agree.

chef8489 wrote:
Now when you are talking about the same horn that is either gold plated, silver plated, raw brass, or lacquered. No they sound the same.


Not so in my experience. I had three silver plated trumpets gold plated this past fall, and all of them came back with a slight attenuation to how they played in silver. They had a relatively "thin coat/layer" of gold applied (30 microinches). They were gone for less than two weeks. At first I did not want to believe it. The more I played each of them, the more I could tell there was a change. Was it huge? Most would say not; but then it might depend on whether the perceived change translates to other listeners. In general each horn sounded like a trumpet in silver, and they each sound like a trumpet now that they are each in gold...but I can tell a change. Is it all bad? No. They each have lovely sounds now...but they had lovely sounds before. I did not have them plated for reasons of changing the sound.

I've also had other horns with finishes changed, and with each, I've been able to discern some changes in playability/sound/response. Some of these changes would be enough to bother some players. In fact one local player has played some of these horns before and after and has much preferred the before finish on some of them!
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:03 am    Post subject: Re: Does horn material make any difference at all? Reply with quote

dstpt wrote:
chef8489 wrote:
...Yes a solid sterling silver bell will sound different than a solid copper bell as will a yellow brass as does gold brass. Nickle silver, solid sterling silver, and yellow brass leadpipes and parts make different sounds.


Agree.

chef8489 wrote:
Now when you are talking about the same horn that is either gold plated, silver plated, raw brass, or lacquered. No they sound the same.


Not so in my experience. I had three silver plated trumpets gold plated this past fall, and all of them came back with a slight attenuation to how they played in silver. They had a relatively "thin coat/layer" of gold applied (30 microinches). They were gone for less than two weeks. At first I did not want to believe it. The more I played each of them, the more I could tell there was a change. Was it huge? Most would say not; but then it might depend on whether the perceived change translates to other listeners. In general each horn sounded like a trumpet in silver, and they each sound like a trumpet now that they are each in gold...but I can tell a change. Is it all bad? No. They each have lovely sounds now...but they had lovely sounds before. I did not have them plated for reasons of changing the sound.

I've also had other horns with finishes changed, and with each, I've been able to discern some changes in playability/sound/response. Some of these changes would be enough to bother some players. In fact one local player has played some of these horns before and after and has much preferred the before finish on some of them!


Yes you will get some slight difference that can perceived to the player. My comment was more towards the beliefe that a silver plated horn as brighter sound to a lacquered horn myth and a gold plated horn has a complete different sound and such. That it is a huge perceptible difference. Ie you take a Bach 37 in lacquer and silver and they will sound the same.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:00 am    Post subject: Re: Does horn material make any difference at all? Reply with quote

LaggsZ wrote:
I frequent both this trumpet and a saxophone forum. I can't tell you how much discussion has occurred over there in saxophones regarding whether horn material can impact sound. The largest and most vocal group says absolutely not. Not the finish, not the material, not the thickness, not the weight. Just the internal dimensions, that's all.


Remember - saxophones are merely keyed bugles gone astray.

LaggsZ wrote:

My simple question is this: has the vast majority of the trumpet world reached the same conclusion?

No - horn weight and bell material make a difference - both to the player and listener. It's not the same experience for the player and listener but it is a difference.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:57 am    Post subject: Re: Does horn material make any difference at all? Reply with quote

chef8489 wrote:
Ie you take a Bach 37 in lacquer and silver and they will sound the same.


Today yes. 50 years ago no. Why? Material change (thin hard epoxy today vs thick softer nitrocellulose back then).
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: Does horn material make any difference at all? Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
chef8489 wrote:
Ie you take a Bach 37 in lacquer and silver and they will sound the same.


Today yes. 50 years ago no. Why? Material change (thin hard epoxy today vs thick softer nitrocellulose back then).

Yes of course. Most of these discussions are about modern horns when these statements are made on the web by people. I understand that the older thicker lacquer had a way of deadening the horn a bit or reducing the vibrations in a way.
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LaggsZ
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Dayton"]There is no question that horn material does impact sound: The different materials vibrate differently. That doesn't mean that the difference is noticeable to us, so there may not be much practical impact. All other things being equal -- bell flare, thickness/weight, seam, bead, etc. (which is not always possible) -- the subtle difference between, say, yellow brass and gold brass would be harder to distinguish than more dissimilar materials like rose brass and titanium.[/quote]

Yes, the conclusion that "there is no practical difference" is consistent with the conclusions regarding saxophone materials. Mouthpiece, reed, internal dimensions are all that matters. That and the internal surface of the horn, e.g., how reflective it is, for example, smooth vs. not smooth. If there is no practical difference, then of course marketers are doing what they do best: marketing.
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LaggsZ wrote:
Dayton wrote:
There is no question that horn material does impact sound: The different materials vibrate differently. That doesn't mean that the difference is noticeable to us, so there may not be much practical impact. All other things being equal -- bell flare, thickness/weight, seam, bead, etc. (which is not always possible) -- the subtle difference between, say, yellow brass and gold brass would be harder to distinguish than more dissimilar materials like rose brass and titanium.


Yes, the conclusion that "there is no practical difference" is consistent with the conclusions regarding saxophone materials. Mouthpiece, reed, internal dimensions are all that matters. That and the internal surface of the horn, e.g., how reflective it is, for example, smooth vs. not smooth. If there is no practical difference, then of course marketers are doing what they do best: marketing.


So did the silversonic models not sound different than the non silversonic of the same model saxaphone?
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LaggsZ
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="chef8489"][quote="LaggsZ"][quote="Dayton"]There is no question that horn material does impact sound: The different materials vibrate differently. That doesn't mean that the difference is noticeable to us, so there may not be much practical impact. All other things being equal -- bell flare, thickness/weight, seam, bead, etc. (which is not always possible) -- the subtle difference between, say, yellow brass and gold brass would be harder to distinguish than more dissimilar materials like rose brass and titanium.[/quote]

Yes, the conclusion that "there is no practical difference" is consistent with the conclusions regarding saxophone materials. Mouthpiece, reed, internal dimensions are all that matters. That and the internal surface of the horn, e.g., how reflective it is, for example, smooth vs. not smooth. If there is no practical difference, then of course marketers are doing what they do best: marketing.[/quote]

So did the silversonic models not sound different than the non silversonic of the same model saxaphone?[/quote]

That particular example never came up! Plastic vs. metal came up. A lot of saxophonists are physicists and material scientists, it seems. The vibrating column of air is it, not the material that contains the column. Material may vibrate slightly differently, but that difference would be so small, relatively speaking, to make any difference at all. The marketers are selling more expensive horns based on materials with undetectable differences in sound. Yet, I don't know if I believe it. Maybe it's easier to hear a difference with a trumpet? Of course, there is a minority of saxophonists who will swear they can hear a difference with materials. But the physicists on the forum with shoot them down quickly....
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There seems to be some concensus on the fact that 90% (or some other random high percentage) of playing the trumpet is mental. If that is so, then the mere placebo effect of a different material will drastically affect your sound.

Just saying that, just because it's all in your head, doesn't mean it isn't real.
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuartissimo wrote:
There seems to be some concensus on the fact that 90% (or some other random high percentage) of playing the trumpet is mental. If that is so, then the mere placebo effect of a different material will drastically affect your sound.

Just saying that, just because it's all in your head, doesn't mean it isn't real.

No that is not the case with brass instruments. The material they are constructed of and the bel flair and size plays a huge roll in the sound. You take the same player and out them on a sterling bach 72, a yellow brass 72, a standard 37, a 43, a 65 and the sound will be completly different. its not placebo, but physics.
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so what
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although I don't make horns, many horn makers say that the way the bell is treated (annealing, work hardening, tempering, etc) has an effect on the sound. I don't really know if it is true, or whether "Resno Tempered Bell" is just marketing.
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stuartissimo
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chef8489 wrote:
its not placebo, but physics.

You misunderstood my post. I'm not arguing it doesn't have a physical effect. I'm merely contemplating whether the physical effect is amplified by the musician's mental state into a greater effect on the sound than the material can achieve on its own.

Personally I do think the material has a physical effect...but so do all the other aspects of the instrument (weight, wrap, bore size, leadpipe, etc.), the mouthpiece and the player. I see little reason to focus on any single one aspect as 'the sound defining difference' though.
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuartissimo wrote:
chef8489 wrote:
its not placebo, but physics.

You misunderstood my post. I'm not arguing it doesn't have a physical effect. I'm merely contemplating whether the physical effect is amplified by the musician's mental state into a greater effect on the sound than the material can achieve on its own.

Personally I do think the material has a physical effect...but so do all the other aspects of the instrument (weight, wrap, bore size, leadpipe, etc.), the mouthpiece and the player. I see little reason to focus on any single one aspect as 'the sound defining difference' though.


But my point earlier, you take all the same aspects, the player and the mouthpiece and yiu change either the bell shape or the material and you get quite a bit difference in sound. Ie a bach 72 vs a bach 37, a sterling plus 72 vs standard 72, a 43 vs a 72, and so on.

Over this vacation, my family can tell when I play my silver sonic vs when I play my silver flair because of the different sound the sterling bell makes. They describe the overtones and how the bell rings differently.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so what wrote:
Although I don't make horns, many horn makers say that the way the bell is treated (annealing, work hardening, tempering, etc) has an effect on the sound. I don't really know if it is true, or whether "Resno Tempered Bell" is just marketing.


It is absolutely true. Reflectance, energy absorption, transmission of vibration, introduction of interference from independent resonators and dependent interference from couplings - this all plays into how the final waveform is constructed. And the inertia, hardness, and transmissivity of the metal itself in each circumstance is critical to the interaction.

I have seen horns that were simply bright and harsh completely change character after the (very messy unfortunately) torch annealing of the bell. Annealing is a big part of what separates the Getzen classic sound (or the lack of annealing in that case) for instance.

I have no facts, and I doubt Brett Getzen will be inclined to chime in for obvious reasons of proprietary protection, but I strongly suspect part of what makes the Proteus unique from the 900 classic is more annealing of the Proteus bell.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually there are multiple factors that differentiate the 907 from the 900. But yes, there is a heat treatment involved. Without giving too much away, I’ll just say that part of the 907 bell is heat treated in a very specific way (temperature, time, location) to achieve the desired sound. The same is true for most of our instruments. Heat treating or annealing a bell in a variety of locations and amounts has a very tangible impact on multiple fronts (tone, color, response,ptojection, etc...). And what works on one model doesn’t necessarily work on another.

I have copies of hand written notes from Vincent Bach to my great-uncle back in the day describing his approach to heat treating bells and what he felt the different techniques accomplished. There are also comments on bell weight, material thickness, etc...
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