Help me understand cornets' niche

[westerner]

I'm a long-time dillettante with a trumpet and I've seen things about the cornet in the literature since my childhood in the 80's, but then, here in the US, the cornet was practically obsolete. Today, we have numerous wonderful side-by-side comparisons on video to help one see and hear cornets compared to trumpets and flugelhorns and other brass horns.

I've come to understand the cornet has descended from the post horn or the similar coach horn with notable differences. Most significantly, the cornet adopted valves, at first rotary and soon after piston valves that allowed it to play melodically throughout it's register. Arban's La grande méthode cultivated musical virtuosity with the cornet when trumpets were still relegated to fanfare.

I have not read of consensus about this, but I personally consider the natural horns to have descended from the true horns like the shofar, whereas the modern trumpet is more an adaptation of the clarion which itself is probably derived from true horns but appears to have forked from them several thousand years ago.

True horns tend to be curved, coiled or spiraling, and conical, whereas the clarion consists of straight cylindrical metal tubing with a bell on the end. We see ancient examples in the shofar and Tutankhamun's clarions respectively.

The early distinction I just pointed out probably wasn't universal and it certainly didn't persist. We see curved, cylindrical Buccina from at least as early as ancient Rome. It blended the buculus with the clarion.

However we want to perceive the procession of horns and clarions through history, we arrive at a point where valves are applied to them to give us the ability to play them melodically and adopt them for sophisticated musical purposes and not just for signaling. At this point, the ones we're interested in are made of brass and they're distinguished principally by either conical or cylindrical tubing and the taper of the bell.

Perhaps because the cornet had adopted valves and gained function earlier, it was especially popular for musical purposes toward the end of the 19th century and into the beginning of the 20th century. However, in America, in the US, it seems the cornet began to evolve in the 20th century to be more trumpet-like.

Around the turn of this century, it appears that various cornet wraps were still being innovated like the Conn-Queror's unique leadpipe entry into the second valve and the King Master's 'underslung' lead tubing.

I'm not sure I understand all the influences on cornet evolution in America, but my personal way of explaining what happened to cornets is: Jazz. Specifically, the cornet was taken out of the orchestra or band section and put into a drastically different context as a solo instrument and otherwise played in unprecedented ways. Perhaps more significantly, this created a tremendous opportunity for the trumpet. Cornets could either adapt and evolve or face obscurity. Some became more trumpet like with shallower mouthpieces (or the same mouthpieces used in trumpets), mostly cylindrical tubing up until the final run to the bell, with the only distinction from trumpets that remained being the wrap.

While 'American' cornets have hung around for many decades now, they exist in relative obscurity compared to trumpets. Where the traditional cornet has maintained or regained popularity such as in British or European brass bands, the American cornets are shunned with complaints about their tone quality and their ability to blend. Frankly, the way they're described you would think they sound like a overweight guy with a Hawaiian shirt, shorts, faux-leather fanny pack and sandals with white tube socks asking where's the nearest McDonald's.

Examples of late-model cornets that seem to have avoided this American character are the Besson, Boosey-Hawkes, Yamaha, John Packer, and so on (I wouldn't know them all). Does that mean that Getzen, Bach, Olds, Kanstul, King, Conn, Reynolds, Blessing and so on are all hopelessly 'American?'

For how long has this distinction existed? Were the turn-of-the-century Holtons and Conns of this American character? Did only the "long" models of this era possess it? Did it start with the King Master models just before the 20's? Or did it only evolve later with the Olds Ambassador?

What exactly is it that gives cornets their major character qualities? We suppose that if a cornet possesses a significant distinction in tone and timbre from trumpets, it is due primarily to the degree to which the tubing is conical as opposed to cylindrical. The mouthpiece shape and cup depth might be the next most influential aspect on the sound. The wrap gives the cornet its unique physical appearance and I suppose that it might enable certain construction methods for a more conical bell section like the 'shepherd's crook.' I'm not claiming it can't be done without this, as we see on the flugelhorn, though its bell section doesn't enter the first valve.

What are the real differences in the sound of these distinct types of cornets? I kind of understand that a trumpet mouthpiece with a shallow cup and the horn's cylindrical tubing is going to give it a "bright" more piercing and trumpet-like sound. A mouthpiece with a deeper cup is often described as lending a "darker" sound, mostly for lack of a better term to describe the opposite of "bright." The effect of more conical tubing on the horn's timbre and tone quality can be heard with obvious distinction in the more extreme flugelhorn. We suppose the cornet to be somewhere inbetween the flugelhorn and trumpet.

What about the idea of "projection?" Is projection the shape of the pattern of sound dispersion from the bell or is it something else? I sort of understand a difference in goals for the shape of sound dispersion. Kanstul's aptly named "Colesium" trumpet is designed for outdoor DCI performances where the player is standing on a football field as much as a hundred yards away from the audience in a giant stadium. There's nothing to their sides, above them, or behind them. The only meaningful place for the sound to go is straight in front of them for a long distance. If you could achieve a kind of ideal laser-focused sound out of a horn for this circumstance, it certainly wouldn't be appropriate for the symphony hall, or the orchestra pit at the opera house where you might just burn the wig of some viola player or melt the face off a lady on the box-tier.

I understand that the sound dispersion pattern, and 'projection' if they are the same thing, can be affected by the size and shape of the bell because the sound will emerge out of the horn and diffract off the edge of the bell. It must vary with frequency since the wavelengths will vary in proportion of the distance to the edge of the bell. I believe the amount of taper in the bell can affect the intonation and 'slotting' and probably has some affect on this sound dispersion pattern also. What I don't understand is the degree to which these somewhat minor differences in size and shape really affect the difference in sound projection. I mean, as long as we're talking about cornets and trumpets and not tubas, we're talking about just fractions of an inch, maybe as little as a few millimeters.

Is a difference in the shape of the projected sound what results in one horn "blending" and another failing to do so? Or is it this as well as the tone quality?

If the shape of the pattern and breadth and height of the dispersion really affects the suitability and virtue of a horn, is this something that is quantified? For loudspeakers as in PA systems and pro-audio sound reinforcement, the shape of sound dispersion is one of the most critical aspects of system design and where we've seen some of the greatest innovation in recent decades using line arrays. Even long before arrays became popular, dispersion patterns were regularly measured and graphed. Many designs were "horn-loaded," a term used to describe an angular bell-like baffle structure that directed sound waves, at least out to a certain wavelength, in a particular pattern where the component and installation designers would strive to cover the audience evenly while avoiding problems resulting from sending sound onto reflective walls or into microphones or wasting amplifier energy sending it into the sky or behind the stage. I wonder if a 3D plot of SPL coming out of an American trumpet versus a British cornet would show a remarkable difference or if the perceived difference is something entirely more subtle.

[Allan M]

This seemingly simple question has a potentially increadibly complex range of responses. Although I am primarily a trumpet player, I have been fortunate enough to play in several of the top bands in the country (Scotland). Therefore my response will be coloured from a UK perspective. BTW, I am very pleased to see that cornet playing in a brass band context is becoming very accepted in the USA.

The first observation about the development of trumpets & cornets is to me an example of convergent evolution, particularly in the 20th century. That is, they started in different places but have become very almost identical mechanically speaking.

My first half decent hooter was a Bach long model American style cornet. I still have it. It really plays, with a shallow mouthpiece at least, like a small trumpet although it can be "stuffy". Stick a deep cornet mouthpiece in and it becomes much darker and more cornet like. However, if I'm playing cornet parts, I use my old sovereign (with a yamaha 14E).

This brings me to my next point. I well remember a concert given by one of the top players in the country "Napoli" ,"Cornet Rhapsody"...Fab. He then switched to trumpet, put his cornet mouthpiece in a conversion shank and played some trumpet piece. He needn't have bothered, it sounded pretty much the same. It works in reverse as well. I have many pro and top amateur trumpet playing friends who will reach for a cornet when playing a Berlioz or Tchaik part, stick in (typically) a Bach 11/4C long shank cornet mouthpiece and blow it like a wee trumpet. They needn't have bothered either. Stravinsky famously said that he did not care whether his parts were played on trumpets or cornets. He had been taught orchestration by Rimsky-Korsakov in the Russian style (copied from the French), so you would quite often find orchestral parts for two trumpets and two cornets (eg Harold in Italy,Petroushka or March Slav). This was mainly because of the chromatic limitations of of 19th century trumpets. Interestingly, both Vaughn -Williams and Elgar sometimes required 2+2, but this is for tonal reasons.....seperate issue.

Cornet playing traditions can be quite different in terms of nationalities and traditions. The contrast in tone of US, French, British and Norwegian players is fascinating to compare.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuRl6lT9Xbw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xNNTVCV79E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwFuuaK8WqE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elo0SPMo6qg

They are all exceptional.


I honestly reckon that one of the biggest reasons for the widespread use of trumpets in the US is because of none other than Louis Armstrong and contemporaries. He ditched the cornet early on probably because of the superior projection of the trumpet (NOT volume. I've sat beside brass band cornettists who can bounce notes off the back of the Albert hall). Much better for noisy bars and the like. As the tradition of local/community bands in the US is concert/military bands and marching bands, there is little room for cornets. There is also (it seems to me) a strong "Germanic" tradition of trumpet playing in the US. I well know that Mr Herseth was taught by a Frenchman (Mager), but no-one can argue that the Chicago brass section is not very definitely American, albeit with a teutonic accent. You will not find cornets in 19th century Austro-German orchestral music. Perhaps someone could confirm/refute this.

To be a trumpet player, you have to have a certain outgoing "Listen to me mum, can you hear me?" approach to music. This makes, IMHO, many trumpet players rather dismissive of cornets and their "brass bandy" sound. This is true in the UK as well.

My last observation in this long post. To me, the main difference between the two is attitude and musical context. Not equipment. I recently played a concert with an 11 piece brass ensemble. The extremely capable trumpeter playing 2nd trumpet used a shallow jet tone mouthpiece - she produced a powerful yet lyrical cornet like sound which blended very wall with the other three trumpets (one Bach, one Schilke and one Yamaha mouthpieces - for the geeks). She had clearly started on cornet. She also plays in a big band, hence the shallow piece.

I flatter myself that I can make my trumpet sound very cornet like and vice versa. It's mainly, I think anyway, to do with attack and vibrato. In addition, when I'm playing a trumpet I think of sending/projecting the sound straight out. With a cornet, I think more of blending in with the other musicians whether they are brass players or not. If you are a true musician, you should be able to sit on the front row of a decent brass band with a trumpet and blend with the other three cornets.... but of course it would be much easier with a cornet. Alternatively, I have used a cornet in a full symphony orchestra and no-one noticed, or probably cared, other than my colleagues! Or Stravinsky probably.

In short, cornet/trumpet tone is produced in your head first and the brass tube second. Dyed in the wool trumpeters will make a cornet sound like a trumpet and lifelong cornettists will make a trumpet sound like a cornet.

Only trumpet players obsess about this. Next, rotary vs piston......


PS The USA does have a magnificent cornet tradition......Arthur C Clarke, ever heard of him?

[Halflip]

[Seymor B Fudd]

Allan!
Thanks a lot for your astute observations of the art of playing cornet and trumpet. I have, in several posts argued that you will have to play the cornetty way if you want to play in a brass band (whioch I do have, since 1958).I sound a lot different when playing lead in big bands! The very approach of playing starts already in your head, probably in the regions that serve our emotions.
I fully agree with your thoughts. I´ve played the söprano part on my Selmer Eb/D trumpet no one ever complaining of the sound; this notwithstanding our director at that time was heavily bent towards the UK style bands. I even recall using it at one occasion when Harry Mortimer payed us a highly treasured short visit.
But - of course - using a "true" soprano cornet, or a true Bb shepherd´s crook cornet makes it far more easy.
This I state as a one time player on a Regent, an Imperial and then a Getzen Eterna. The latter a different kind of animal but very "tameable".
And thanks for the wonderful, instructive clips!
Ps: my ears say James Shepheard! But this was the era of the bright UK cornets…..so personal taste is involved
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)

[Rwwilson]

I have my own, non historical, method that I use to decide when to play a cornet or when to play a trumpet. When playing in a concert band and the music says cornet I play cornet. When it says trumpet I play trumpet. When I play in an English brass band I play cornet. When I play big band jazz I play a trumpet. When I play Dixieland I toss a coin. I use a modern deep cornet mouthpiece, not a vintage deep v, for the cornet. The exception is when I play my 1906 Holton. Then I use the deep v that was original to the horn. I use a standard, fairly shallow, trumpet mouthpiece for the trumpet. I practice playing both and have a different sound in mind for each. When I play just for my own enjoyment I play cornet.

[adc]

[Allan M]

OOOOOP'S!!

Of course I meant Herbert L. Our MD "Forget the excercises with fewer than four sharps & flats. If you are short of time (like me) you can still do all the moving long tone and gradual range expansion and excercise your brain and dexterity at the same time" is very much a fan.

I am also a fan of Arthur C. (2001), especially his early stuff. BTW Did you know that both Arthur C and Stanley Kubrick who directed the film were irritated that the producers insisted that the title be pronounced "two thousand and one" not "twenty o one", which is correct. That means we are now in twenty twenty two, not two thousand (&) twenty two.

Call me a pedant!

[Seymor B Fudd]

[Allan M]

Humble opinion? In my experience no-one that plays soprano cornet is humble. I spent most of my later banding years on rep so got to sit beside some monsters. I have great respect for you guys & gals, especially having done a few contests (one at the nationals in London) sitting on Sop. Not for the faint hearted.

The first band I played in as a youngster (1970's) was still using high pitch instruments. I remember the issue of not being able to use my own instrument there, but I had no idea about the tonal implications at that time. Many years later, I had a conversation with Howard Snell, former principal trumpet LSO and later a well respected brass band conductor/arranger/composer. He also wrote a book "The Art of Trumpet Playing". There is a lot of good advice in that. He lamented the passing of higher pitched brass instruments together with the adaption of larger bore instruments and deeper mouthpieces. He felt, probably correctly, that the drop in brightness robbed the the (British) brass band of a unique chararcteristic. The only time I can recall hearing a decent band using (I think) high pitch narrow bore instruments was a Swiss band at the European Championships(1990's?). By that time, all the Scandinavian, Netherlands and Belgian bands had moved to bigger instruments. I really liked the light "silvery", fast vibrato sound, but I was very much in the minority, most of my friends preferred the bigger, darker more "modern" sound, but it was different.

I hope I am wrong, but I sense a drift towards a more homogenous brass sound worldwide. One big advantage of living in the UK (Glasgow) is that we can get to hear top UK, Russian, German, Czech even occasionally Japanese and US orchestras live. In the relatively recent past, it was always fascinating to hear the familiar orchestral reportoire played in varying national styles. The brass sound (maybe the wind & strings too) of each group had a different, but neither better nor worse tone quality. This seems to be less apparant now. The days of Eastern European orchestras using narrow bore trumpets and trombones are disappearing and the characteristic "Dutch" sound of, for example, the Concertgebouw seems (to my ears anyway), is becoming less characterful. I have some regrets about that. The Vienna Phil still sounds like the Vienna Phil though.

I have some 1970's Black Dyke recordings, and whilst they had moved to low pitch, I am certain that the trombones were using "Pea -Shooter" instruments. My trombone tooting colleagues are a bit disdainful of these instruments, preferring a more symphonic sound. But in a band context, they have an "edge" which cuts through the rest of the saxhorn sound and gives a different colour. Good grief, such instruments was good enough for Tommy Dorsey and Glen Miller!

In my mind, med/small bore instruments are not much quieter than large bore, but they reach a "forte" colour more easily and are more manageable at very low dynamics. I find mine easier to play for a long time in a rehearsal/concert.

I have heard Jim Shepherd, Phillip McCann and Maurice Murphy live and although they were all Black Dyke principals cornets, they all had different sounds. It is worth noting that although MM was a originally cornettist, he was also a stunning straight up orchestral player.

By the time I heard Jim Shepherd, he was playing a low pitch cornet, probably a Besson International.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fkmsju2mOEU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPCW4vjuA6s

OK,OK very old fashioned style, but my goodness these guys can play!!

I thought I would drop a large boulder into the quiet rockpool of this post.

Let's see if this starts a fight.......

https://4barsrest.com/articles/2001/feat003.asp

I also found this interesting

https://www.robbstewart.com/high-pitch-and-low-pitch

For what it's worth my current hooters are:

1980 Bach strad ML Bb
Yamaha Xeno Large bore (A bit like mysel') C
Yamaha E/Eb YTR-9635 E/Eb
Yamaha D/Eb YTR-6610S
Yamaha Rotary Bb YTR-436G
Sovereign Bb Cornet Medium Bore
Bach 1001 Long model Cornet (for nostalgia)
Budget "Festivo" picc (can't play the bloody thing!)
Courtois Flugel (My favourite insrument)

[Voltrane]

Are the « long trumpy » style Cornet like the one played by Nat Adderley still produced ? And by who ?
Thanks.
_________________
S’il n’en reste qu’un je serai celui là (Victor Hugo)
Je m’empresse d’en rire de peur d’avoir à en pleurer (Beaumarchais)

[Brassnose]

Yes, they are: Bach, Martin Böhme, Carol Brass, Yamaha, Schilke (sort of, not the classic long cornets), any custom maker can build you one.
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[Seymor B Fudd]

I just loved your two brass band links. Oldfashioned? Probably but so delicate, so lovely, so cornetty. Although it seems Maurice M played on a trumpet Touching!
The other links interesting! Thanks!

Harry Mortimer! Yes - we (the brass band I grew up in, still playing front row) were lucky enough to be conducted by him once.
In fact our brass band, medium level or close to, composed by local guys from the beginning has been lucky enough to be visited by him, Eric Ball (twice) Geoffrey Brand (several occasions), Bram Gay and some other UK brass band guys.
Our first conductor, mid 1950s (I began late 1950s) came from the Salvation Army folks; his daddy was a reknown cornet player and arranger. Our second director went to the contests at many times, also connecting with the UK brass band world.

Back at the time our trombon players had these tiny horns. I remember the bass trombon man who had a handle, making him able to play the deepest tones. Looking at him diagonally across the band playing the root of the chord and me playing on top on my soprano - quite an experience, to be such a part of the music, no, to be so inside the music! Engulfed!
Today the bass trombonist has a horn with a bell big as that of an euphonium...times they are a changing!

Although I love playing in big bands there is nothing that can compare to the sound of a brass band - deep down, in my soul!
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)

[spitvalve]

When I'm practicing trumpet or cornet I make a conscious effort to avoid having one sound like the other. I don't know how truly "cornetty" my Getzen Capri is compared to my trumpets, but using a deeper mouthpiece and trying to use a less laser-like air stream helps me get the dark and warm tone that sounds (to my ears, at least) like what a cornet should sound like. Could I get that same sound using the deep cup on my trumpets? Maybe, but then it would defeat my purpose for buying the cornet, which I did because 1) I wanted a different sound to add to my arsenal, 2) it was in great condition for a great price, and 3) it looks really cool to have a bunch of horns out on their stands in the corner of my office.

Gear Acquisition Syndrome. The struggle is real.
_________________
Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1979 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
Eastlake Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces

[Robert P]

[huntman10]

[huntman10]

Well, back to the original post in this twisted thread.

In the two weeks since westerner dropped his proposal for his PhD in Perverse Brass Philosophy and History into our cloistered community, I have been trying to find some profound and defensible postulate that will make us all want to develop a collection of Great American Cornets of the 40's, 50's, and 60's. At least to justify my own accumulation of such instruments.

I have an obsession with American cornets of that era. While I do play Soprano Cornet in a brass band, it is NOT the traditional, shall I say "hidebound" tradition of the BBB. In fact, we mainly use trumpets, but I would love it if we had cornets of the American style. I should also admit that for most section playing in our concert band, I use the long horn.

As far as the disparity between the British Brass Band cornet and what I am calling the "traditional American cornet", I ascribe to the theory that the American style of cornet playing did indeed spring from its popularity in the "bawdy houses" near the turn of the 19th to the 20th century. It then further evolved through the military band uses such as John Philip Sousa, eventually through the concert band arrangements specifying large cornet sections and a couple of trumpets, and on the "dreadnaught" marching bands in larger high schools and universities in the 1960's and 70's. I would say that the American style cornets probably peaked out in the late 60's with the Connstellation 38A, Olds Opera, etc. Of course, the Bach Strad cornets (pre model 184) are probably leading examples of American style cornets developed in the 1930's.

The traditional BBB cornet has evolved little over the years, which is not to say they have not IMPROVED, and I would be the last to deny the artistry of those players in that genre'. I am just saying that the strictness of the BBB rules don't allow for change.

To that end, last Thursday night, I decided to take a couple of examples of American style cornets; a 1921 Conn "New Wonder" (pre-80A Victor designation) with the Bb/A "mechanism" and my 1947 Super Recording. I also had my Eb Yamaha Cornet, since there was an Eb part (like a jazz lead) on "Don't Be Cruel" for me to play.

I normally play second stand in the Concert band, and expected to do that Thursday. However, unbeknownst to me, the whole first section had a gig, so I had to move up with my cornet setup. I had brought a Schilke 15A4a for the Eb, so it worked well as a lead piece, and a Kanstul 1 1/2B cup in a Warburton wide Olds Shank for the Super Recording. For the New Wonder, I had a 60's Bach 1 1/2 C "just in case" and a Curry 2 VC short shank deep cup, similar to the original Conn that came with a 1927 Victor I have.

Anyway, there I sat with my antiques in front of 8 or so 2nd and 3rd stand players armed 100% with modern trumpets. At my age, I joke that all playing for me is sight reading, but this really was, and not my forte', but all my cornets maintained their "vocal" cornet timbre, but had enough authority to lead the section. The big surprise came when we got to "Sound of Silence", which was written for a flugelhorn duet. One of our guys (who plays flugelhorn in the Brass Band, as well) had his Conn Vintage One Flug, but no one else had one, so I plugged the deep Curry in my 1921 New Wonder and it blended in perfectly well. The fifth harmonic was a bit flat (4th space E) but carefully applied 1-2 fingerings worked well. In fact, our director made a point to compliment my "flugelhorn" sound. I told him it was actually a 100 year old cornet with a traditional mouthpiece.

While I would be crazy to deny that modern trumpets have just about extirpated any demand for "American tradition" cornets, the American tradition cornets are still worthy tools for musicians who can appreciate their qualities.
_________________
huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[Allan M]

This is great fun. In the fifty odd years I have been playing, there has been a very significant change in attitude towards brass instrument manufacture, playing philosophies, mouthpieces etc. Unlike our string playing colleagues, whose gold standard was established by messers Stradavarius and Guarneri (after Amati) in the 17th & 18th centuries, I suppose that brass instruments have not yet reached an apotheosis. This, of course, leads to much discussion about what elements combine to make the best trumpet/cornet/flugelhorn. There is no answer. As several contributers have pointed out, and I fully agree, the most significant factor in the final quality of sound is the player, not the gear......but the battles will continue!

To futher enhance to the response to Robert P re high pitch, in effect such instruments were a semitone higher than standard (low pitch). In the late seventies, most of these intruments were converted to low pitch by the simple expedient of adding extra tubing to the leadpipes and valve slides. For reasons that will be obvious to those versed in accoustics, the results were not wholly satisfactory. Interestingly (well to me at any rate as I'm an organist as well), the high pitch issue is not confined to old brass instruments. There is what should be a fine 1889 Lewis organ in a community hall in Glasgow........if the restoration is ever completed. It is high pitch and has to be maintained as such to comply with the charity grant conditions. This will make it strictly a solo instrument or a wee surprise to any singers it is required to accompany.

Last word on this. It can go the other way. A few years ago I took part as a singer in a performance of the Bach B minor Mass. The band was the London Baroque players. They used Baroque pitch (A=415, a semitone lower than "our" pitch). This suited the boys and ladies on the top treble/soprano line, but meant that the organist on continuo had to transpose the entire thing down a semitone.... which he did. Flawlessly.

To bring this full circle, in response to the original question from westerner,
"What is the niche of the cornet?", from an orchestral perspective, here's my tuppence (2cents) worth.
In 19th century, the cornet was used in France by the likes of Berlioz as a means of filling in the chromatic gaps in the natural trumpets of the era, hence the requirement for two cornets and two trumpets in his orchestras. This practice was adapted by the Russians until the early 20th century. The Germans stuck with trumpets and the parts by, for example, Brahms and Bruch are all playable on natural trumpets. Wagner, Bruckner and Mahler started to exploit the potential of chromatic trumpets a little later. In the UK, by the time the really big symphonic orchestrators came along (Elgar, Vaugh Williams & Holst etc), natural trumpets were disappearing but cornets were well established in smaller orchestras and in colliery bands and these composers were well aware of their capabilities. In fact all three of them wrote test pieces for brass bands.

Co-incidently, as of tomorrow, we are starting to prepare Vaughn-Williams' "London" symphony. He requests two trumpets and two cornets, both fully chromatic parts. Yes, we could use four trumpets, but I shall be engaging a brass band colleague to play cornet with my good self. It is the most certainly the sound that RVW would have had in mind (ear?). Cat amongst the pidgeons observation, RVW very much preferred the sound of larger 6 foot narrow bore F trumpets rather than modern 4 foot Bb's, in which case perhaps a couple of rotary Bb hooters would be tonally more appropriate? I'm leaving it there.

[kerouack]

This is a VERY interesting thread.
do you have a list of classical composers that used cornets ?

[kehaulani]

FWIW, when I started out, cornets in concert band were still used in some of the big organizations like the Michigan or North Texas concert bands. They eventually pretty much fell out of use, defaulting to all-trumpet sections.

In the 90s, I decided to go back to using cornets for the music that was originally written for them, when I played such music. Sometimes the music called for a small, independent trumpet section. When I did that, I got a lot of compliments in the changed, warmer sound in such music.

Of course, for more contemporary music, I used full trumpet sections. But for the other stuff that was originally written for cornet sections, I used what was originally written for.

(Of course, it goes without saying that the players had to play their cornets like cornets and not like trumpets, to be effective.)
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[Allan M]

I thought this thread was dead and buried..........glad it's not.

Composers that specify cornets, OK. This is absolutely not exhaustive, but here goes.

I reckon that cornets were requested at first by pre 1850 French composers, most notably Hector Berlioz. He liked a big symphonic band. Up next for us is the drug fuelled Symphony Fantastique two trumpets, two cornets (also two tubas and four bassoons). Most of his popular symphonic stuff used this line up. The other orchestra with which I play just performed his Roman Carnival overture and Tschaikovsky's Swan Lake suite, both of which also required 2+2.

The reason for this is the aforementioned lack of chromatics in the trumpets of that time. However, even then he MUST have been aware of the different tone of the two instruments, otherwise he would have written four cornet parts.

This practice continued in France until the end of the nineteenth century by a small number of composers notably Cesar Frank (OK OK I know he was Belgian, but he studied in France). I suspect he was regarded as a little old fashioned by his near contemporary Saint-Saens who requested trumpets (eg his organ symphony requires two F trumpets and one C trumpet). But old Meyerbeer was still plugging away with cornets. I don't think Bizet ever asked for cornets, in L'Arlesseine he wants four trumpets- parts 3 & 4 can be played on natural instruments. This may simply be due to contemporary player availability. The French (and the British), unlike their teutonic counterparts, were not really all that big with symphonic music in the early-mid 19th century. Therefore, as far as I believe, Berlioz and Frank are the only big beasts who used 2+2.

The Russians, mainly the St Petersburg cohort, were very Francophillic in the arts, including art, literature and architecture as well as music. So of course they adopted the French approach to orchestration, most notably Tchaikovsky. In his last 3 symphonies he only uses two trumpets, but in his ballet music and big overtures he uses 2+2. He writes some really great cornet parts and florid solos in these works. His near contemporary Rimsky-Korsakov and fellow "Kutchka" colleagues always went for trumpets. Interestingly, even in his trombone concerto, written for wind band, he specifies trombas, not cornets. Even more interesting, his superstar pupil Stravinsky scores for 2+2 in his early ballet music, the ghost of Tchaikovsky or the fact that his ballets were premiered in Paris? Go Figure. As I pointed out earlier, he didn't really care as long as the parts got played. Next generation, Rachmaninov, Khatachurian (OK Georgian) and Schostakovitch are all trumpet guys. Not Prokoviev though. He scored for two trumpets and one cornet in Lt Keije. I really think that a trumpet on that part does not sound as good. Prokoviev wanted that sound.

The story in the UK is slightly different. Cornets were the instruments for Sullivan in his operas and suites. Probably because they were fully chromatic and the availability of competent players. Elgar and Vaughn-Williams started using 2+2 for the same reasons as the French, but stuck with them even as more flexible trumpets started appearing. I can't think of any Holst orchestral piece that uses cornets, but I may be wrong. On a side note, RVW requires a flugelhorn in his 9th symphony, very rare.

The Germans and Austrians are almost exclusively trumpet guys, as are the Bohemians. I have often wondered if the non-orchestral trumpet parts in Janaceks' Sinfonietta would work better on cornets along with a couple of baritones on the bass parts with the euphoniums. Just a thought.

The Italians were like the other non-Germans, not big on symphonic music.

Their big hitter Verdi wrote some really good trumpet parts, but nothing for cornet (I think).

One little footnote, there is a German who requested a cornet, Oskar Bohme, who was a trumpeter himself wrote a charming sextet for cornet, 2 trumpets, basstrumpet or horn, trombone and tuba. There are several versions on youtube.

PS good grief, I am long winded.